Would I benefit from a water softener?

[EvanVanVan]

I'm considering installing a water softener. Although, while my water is "hard," compared to other posters here, it's not very hard. But, every winter I suffer from insanely dry skin. I'm just not sure if that's due to typical dry conditions or, it just dawned on me recently, possibly hard water.

I'm on city water in northern NJ (veolia). I just used a pool test kit to measure the CH of my water as 160ppm (so 9.3 GPG?). The water line coming in the house is 1", through a 1" meter, before immediately downsizing to 3/4".

Side note, ideally I'd like to fill my 365 gallon hot tub through the water softener. Will that be feasible? It uses a salt system for chlorine generation and it wants a target CH of 50 ppm (2.9 GPG). Currently, I have to spend $ buying single use water softening pillows to lower the CH. I'd rather fill it with soft water and raise the CH with tablets if necessary to hit the target level. A full refill only needs to occur every 6 months or so. Other than that it's just a small top off once a month.

Any recommendations on size of a softener? 1.5 cubic feet, 10% cross linked resin?

I'm a huge DIY guy and have all the tools necessary to install, but it sounds like I could be better off spending the money to have it installed by someone else locally rather than getting one online where quality could be an issue? Is it possible to buy parts separately online and build it myself?

Thank you

 

[Reach4]

Any recommendations on size of a softener? 1.5 cubic feet, 10% cross linked resin?

That would be good for up to 6 people at 12 grains per gallon.

1 cuft is practical too, but you would want to usually limit the usual flow to about 5 gpm for best softening. For filling the hot tub, you are not needing best softening, so you could go a little faster.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[EvanVanVan]

Looking into it further, I see my difficulty in finding softeners with clack control valves is Clack prohibiting internet sales. Should I give up and attempt to find a reasonably priced local installer, or go with a fleck 5600? Keeping in mind I would prefer to do all service work myself in the future.

 

[Reach4]

I would probably go with the Fleck 5800SXT, but the 5600SXT has been good.

 

[Bannerman]

I just used a pool test kit to measure the CH of my water as 160ppm (so 9.3 GPG?).

To test hardness properly, obtain a Hach 5B Total Hardness test kit. The 5B is a titration type test, which indicates 'total hardness' in Grains Per Gallon, not just calcium hardness.

Should I give up and attempt to find a reasonably priced local installer, or go with a fleck 5600?

You said your home's main supply line is 1" diameter. The 5600 is a several decades old design which has limitations, including its design for 3/4" or smaller diameter water supplies.

Local generic water treatment dealers that supply and install, will be more likely to equip their systems with high quality, proven components, compared to an online seller that will not typically offer onsite service. This is because a cheaper, non proven component of questionable quality, that fails during the dealer's warranty coverage period, will cost that local dealer more for the return service call and loss of reputation compared to the amount saved for a cheaper part. Because cheap components are typically sourced in bulk from overseas distributors, there usually is no warranty support for the dealer to submit a claim for reimbursement.

 

[EvanVanVan]

I would probably go with the Fleck 5800SXT, but the 5600SXT has been good.

It seems like Fleck (pentair) also prohibits selling online (officially)? Any of these model numbers I google I get conflicting reviews on (5810SXT supposedly being better than 5800SXT?) and half of them (7000, 2510, etc) seem to be discontinued.

 

[EvanVanVan]

will be more likely to equip their systems with high quality, proven components

And I can't just buy the components individually and assemble them myself?

This post: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/fleck-5600-mechanical-vs-clack-ws1.93239/#post-673410 seemed to have the start of a shopping list

 

[Reach4]

It seems like Fleck (pentair) also prohibits selling online (officially)? Any of these model numbers I google I get conflicting reviews on (5810SXT supposedly being better than 5800SXT?) and half of them (7000, 2510, etc) seem to be discontinued.

They discontinued 5810SXT due to high failure rates for the piston. The valve has a very high slew rate for the piston.. I have the 5810SXT. No failed piston yet.

 

[Bannerman]

(5810SXT supposedly being better than 5800SXT?)

A design problem, resulted in the 5810 and 5812 valves being discontinued.

The 5800 is far more capable than the 5600, and there is no known issues with the 5800.

 

[GReynolds929]

Have you checked with these guys https://www.cwts.ca/collections/clack-water-softeners
I got my back washing kl filter from them.

 

[EvanVanVan]

Have you checked with these guys https://www.cwts.ca/collections/clack-water-softeners
I got my back washing kl filter from them.

Thank you. I guess I'd be responsible for import taxes though coming from Canada.

I reached out to Clack to find local dealers.

 

[Taylorjm]

Well I know I get chastised for saying this but I have been very happy with us water online. You can buy the water test, they give you the results and discuss what’s best and deduct the cost of the test if you buy something. I have a water softener and backwashing carbon filter from them and installed it myself. I have years of plumbing experience so that wasn’t an issue for me. The softener is almost 10 years old now and the carbon filter is maybe 3 years. Plus I also got a couple big blue sediment filters from them and I’ve been happy with the quality as well. The price was comparable but I honestly can’t tell you what kind of valve they use. At the time I wasn’t as knowledgeable on that stuff because it was the first time I had a house with a well, I was looking for something decent quality I could do myself. The other options was a local culligan dealer and that was completely outrageously priced plus a monthly fee for service and no user serviceable parts. At least us water has a parts breakdown in the manual and carries parts. Also they had very high flow rates with equipment. Both pieces are piped with 1” lines and rated for 20gpm. Just my opinion and experience. I know not everyone will agree.

 

[GReynolds929]

Thank you. I guess I'd be responsible for import taxes though coming from Canada.

I reached out to Clack to find local dealers.

I would've had to pay the import taxes, but they had a stateside distributor in California that had the tank I needed in stock.

 

[EvanVanVan]

I would've had to pay the import taxes, but they had a stateside distributor in California that had the tank I needed in stock.

I emailed them asking for further information, thank you for the suggestion!

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Separately, I'm making progress sourcing one locally. I have an account with Ferguson and I'm finally having luck finding Clack options. I contacted Clack looking for local dealers and was given two OEMs in my area, Lancaster Water Group and Charger Water Treatment.

Ferguson has stock of a couple of different Lancaster Water Treatment options although they are both quite a bit more expensive than online dealers. But, included in the pictures on the following couple of pages is what clearly looks like a Clack valve.

They have a reasonably priced IronSoft line available in 34/32/45K options. They have currently stock of the 32K and 45K options. - https://www.ferguson.com/product/la...ss-and-fine-mesh-resin-l7feslx32b/_/R-4085187

They have a significantly more expensive CitySoft line available in 24/36/48K options - https://www.ferguson.com/product/la...-and-cat-hac-carbon-l7lxdcats150b/_/R-7436556

I'm not sure what the difference is between the IronSoft and CitySoft options, I'd have to email Lancaster. Just thinking about the term "CitySoft" now, maybe 8% vs 10% crosslink resins?

Ferguson also has a 1.5 cu.ft Charger Water Treaterment softener in their system, https://www.ferguson.com/product/charger-water-treatment-15-cf-water-softener-ccwws148r/_/R-7236495. But none are currently in stock, although it says they are possibly available for shipping when I'm logged into my account. The price is in line with online dealers, although it might just be a placeholder. (This PDF (https://www.chargerwater.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Clack-WS1-sell-sheet-compressed.pdf) shows it uses a Clack for that CWWS148R model.)

Finally, Ferguson stocks Watts PWSR series softeners and has one 30K option in stock very locally to me, and lots of 45Ks in stock. - https://www.ferguson.com/product/wa...s-16-gpm-water-softener-wpwsr145k/_/R-7532772

I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like the control module (https://www.watts.com/products/wate...conditioning-solutions/water-softeners/w100sm) is a private label Clack? This PDF even states Clack, https://media.wattswater.com/WQCP_ResidentialSofteners-Canada.pdf. (The second page with standard tanks mentions the same.) Although, the model numbers don't match up, but the pictures are of the same control valve. It doesn't appear that the PWSR series is a vortech model.

Is there any issue with going with a private label Clack control (if that's indeed what the Watts is)?

 

[Taylorjm]

Yeah but Ferguson is just a supplier. They don’t service them or know anything about them. If you go that route just buy from a big box store because you will get the same service. At least find a company that is knowledgeable about the products and will stand behind them with some kind of warranty and support.

 

[EvanVanVan]

Yeah but Ferguson is just a supplier. They don’t service them or know anything about them. If you go that route just buy from a big box store because you will get the same service. At least find a company that is knowledgeable about the products and will stand behind them with some kind of warranty and support.

I'd like a quality product I can install myself and repair in the future if necessary. I'm sure there's a learning curve but it's not rocket science, right? Between the manual, a couple of YouTube videos and valuable resources like this forum, I'll figure it out, no?

For better or worse I'm never happy with the quality of work when I hire someone to do something. I'd much rather do it myself lol.

 

[Taylorjm]

I'd like a quality product I can install myself and repair in the future if necessary. I'm sure there's a learning curve but it's not rocket science, right? Between the manual, a couple of YouTube videos and valuable resources like this forum, I'll figure it out, no?

For better or worse I'm never happy with the quality of work when I hire someone to do something. I'd much rather do it myself lol.

No, I agree with doing it yourself, I’m the same way, I mean finding a vendor that isn’t just a reseller but also can service them by providing support and parts. That’s why I went with us water at the time. They use a clack valve as the base but then add another brand control panel on it so you configure it with an app on your phone. Gives all kinds of stats and easy to reprogram. If there’s an issue with the hardware they have support staff you can call. If something fails within the multi year warranty then they will send you new parts. They also sell the resin and parts if you need to refresh the resin. Not saying you need to use us water but find a vendor like that to buy from. The last thing you want to do is try and trouble shoot why you aren’t getting soft water by watching YouTube or hoping someone will reply here and hit and miss with finding parts you need. Just my opinion.

 

[EvanVanVan]

Just keeping this thread updated for future DIYers. I'm leaning towards a Lancester Model#: 7-LX-150B. Ferguson has it for reasonably priced and it's well stocked: https://www.ferguson.com/product/la...er-with-bypass-and-resin-l7lx150b/_/R-4010584

As far as I can tell it's pretty standard. I don't think it's a Vortech model (that seems be the LES series). Although, I did notice that in the pictures most of the Lancester models used a "distributor plate" (?) and not a funnel/cone basket, which made me second guess for a minute. But I'm hoping it's just an updated method vs the basket. (FWIW, the LES series that does appear to be the Vortech version, show the cone basket in the picture so maybe that doesn't mean anything at all lol).

Going off the parts list it uses a 10% crosslinked resin.

One of the Lancester links on Ferguson I shared previously incorporated a carbon filter into to the tank, but googling that it seems preferable to keep that separate from the softening process.

I'm still waiting for a local company to come this week and give me a price to install one but I'm assuming it's going to be higher than I want to pay lol.

 

[Bannerman]

Showing a Vortech bottom plate when that system is not equipped with one, is misleading at best, and deceptive at worst.

While that unit appears to be equipped with a Clack WS-1 or WS-1.25 valve with a custom valve cover, they do need to clearly specify if that specific model is equipped with a Vortech bottom screen, or a standard bottom distributor basket. If a bottom basket is utilized, it should be also equipped with gravel under bedding, which is typically not included and claimed to be un-needed by most online distributors, due to the additional shipping expense to them for the additional weight for the gravel. Gravel is normally not utilized with a Vortech bottom screen.

While a Vortech bottom screen also allows the Drain Flow Rate (= Backwash Flow rate) to be reduced by 15-20% compared for a standard bottom basket, if equipped with a bottom basket, the Drain Flow rate for a 9" diameter X 48" H tank (1 ft3 resin) should be 2.0 gpm, or 2.4 gpm for a 10" diameter X 54" tank (1.5 ft3 resin). In reviewing the Specification info at the link provided, it seems the unit is equipped with a lower flow rate drain restrictor button, more appropriate for a Vortech bottom screen, not a standard bottom basket.

If equipped with a bottom basket, suggest also ensuring the basket is a genuine Fleck or Clack model, as there are many cheaper, low quality bottom baskets available, which are prone to failure and loss of resin into your home plumbing system.

Also ensure an upper basket is also included. While many consider an upper basket's main purpose is to prevent resin loss to drain if the backwash rate is too high, the actual benefit is to deflect the incoming flow across the diameter of the tank above the resin, instead of flowing straight down and eroding the resin to create a depression directly below.

While Fine Mesh resin is available to marginally increase iron removal in well water applications, Fine Mesh resin is usually not recommended even for high iron removal applications, due to increased flow restriction through the fine resin bed, often refereed to as pressure loss.

Their specifications also indicate their softeners are pre-programmed for Brine Fill First. While that setting would be appropriate if using Potassium Chloride as the regenerant, if planning to utilize the usual Sodium Chloride (salt), then suggest ensuring the unit is programmed for Brine Fill Last as that will reduce the time required to regenerate each cycle.

 

[EvanVanVan]

Thank you for the in-depth information, more research to do...!

The more I read, the more I think it is in fact a Vortech model.. it doesn't specifically mention it anywhere but does say "plate distribution system". This PDF (https://lancasterwatergroup.com/wp-...ets/Water_Treatment/Estate-Cataloge-sheet.pdf) for their "Estates Series - LX 1.25" doesn't appear to say vortech, but if you ctrl+f search it finds it.

Copying all the text to notepad, the line is "The X-Factor Series LX features a Lancaster designed state-of-the-art control valve and Vortech distribution system to ensure peak efficiency."

I'll probably end up calling them up and talking my way in. Any like I said, more research to do...

Edit:

they do need to clearly specify if that specific model is equipped with a Vortech bottom screen, or a standard bottom distributor basket.

In the spec sheet it actually does "Bottom Distributor Type: Plate." While the Gold/Diamond Line LER/LES (respectively) shows the basket and says "Bottom Distributor Type: Basket" - https://lancasterwatergroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/WT_Gold_LER_StandardSoftener_Spec.pdf

Interestingly, the Platinum FESLES IronSoft line seems to even actually show gravel:

The Bottom Distributor Type is listed as: "Stack - 11 Segment Fine Slot" - https://lancasterwatergroup.com/wp-.../WT_Platinum_FESLES_StandardIronSoft_Spec.pdf, not sure what that means