Hot water lines filled with particles of some sort - please help!

[Wapa]

This has been a big problem for us for a month now and 3 different plumbers are not sure how to fix it. When I turn on any of our hot water lines I get a lot of white/cream colored particles. It resembles sand but is larger and is easily broken up between fingers.

I've read about this for days online. We do have hard water so the logical conclusion would be calcium carbonate. Everything I've read is that calcium carbonate should fizz (releasing CO2) and dissolve in an acid like vinegar. I've had this stuff sitting in vinegar for over a week now and it hasn't been affected by it one bit.

So maybe it's a dip tube? Everything I've read says the particles would float. These do not. I also tried to heat it up on the stove to see if it would melt but it doesn't.

So what the heck is this stuff? It only comes from the hot water lines. I've flushed the water heater (gas, ~70 gallon tank) many times and run the end of the hose through a strainer and I get nothing. But put a strainer under any hot water line and I get ~1tbsp of this stuff per minute!!

We do have a hot water circulation loop and pump. I've shut off the pump and closed off the loop back to the heater and that made no difference.

I've run water through these lines for a month now and it just keeps coming out as much as ever. After one of the water heater drains I left the temp and the lowest setting. After an hour of flushing there was very little of this stuff coming out anymore. I turned the heat back up and 2 hours later tried it again, and it was coming out again as much as ever. So it would seem that the heating of the water is producing this substance, so again you'd think it's some mineral like calcium carbonate. But if I put cold water in a pot and heat it to ~130 degrees on the stove this stuff is not produced, so I don't understand the difference.

Nothing seems to make any sense, and the plumbers have all told me it must be from the hard water and I need to install a softener to fix it. One also told me they'd need to descale the lines with some chemical at a very high cost, and then install a softener.

This house was built 8 years ago with pex pipes. I noticed a little bit of this stuff in the aerators from time to time, and that's been the case for the last 5-6 years. But I'm talking a tiny bit over probably a 6 month period. Now this stuff is literally just pouring out.

We've stopped using our washing machine and dishwasher out of fear of messing them up. The dishwasher solenoid was actually clogged up by this stuff already and cost us $300 to get fixed. It's been a month now and all aerators have been off and a few of the faucets have become completely clogged - zero hot water comes out. I learned how to back flush those so I can get them working again, but this is just a nightmare!

Please help!

Thanks,
Warren

 

[PumpMd]

It sounds like a calcium problem and you must have extremely hard water if that is your problem. I would get your water tested ASAP to know for a fact if it's calcium or something else in your water that is causing the problem.

Post your test results on the softener forum here for Ditttohead.

Ditttohead's recommendations,

Since you are your own municipality you will need to spend some money. NTLLABS or KAR Labs are excellent companies to get water testing done with. After a proper test is done, a proper system can be designed and implemented.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

I also tried to heat it up on the stove to see if it would melt but it doesn't.

How about getting it hotter still, maybe with a propane torch. Does it burn, or just glow red while hot?

I don't have a theory at this point.

 

[DougB]

It must be your water heater.

 

[Wapa]

Thanks for the responses. I will get the water tested. One update - I thought the vinegar test might be misleading as it's a weaker acid, so I went to the pool supply and bought some muriatic acid. I poured that directly onto the particles and nothing. No fizzing and particles did not dissolve after hours of sitting in the acid.

 

[PumpMd]

I tell people to use Lime-A-Way for calcium buildup. Hot water tanks and extremely hard water don't mix because of the heat from the elements. What is your temp set at on your hot water tank?

My hot water tank only lasted about 6years from my hard water before it filled up with calcium over my bottom heating element. I had to get the calcium out of my hot water tank and install new heating elements with a water softener. I'm close to hitting my year mark again with no maintenance (flushing your hot water tank before it can clog up your hose bib)

 

[Reach4]

One update - I thought the vinegar test might be misleading as it's a weaker acid, so I went to the pool supply and bought some muriatic acid. I poured that directly onto the particles and nothing. No fizzing and particles did not dissolve after hours of sitting in the acid.

You sure do your due diligence!

One comment on flushing the WH: at a minimum, after you drain, turn the incoming on full and back off. Let that drain. Repeat a few times. The point is to have the incoming water hit the bottom of the tank with turbulence to knock stuff loose. They sell wands for the purpose of cleaning the WH bottom. You either unscrew the drain valve for that, and maybe insert a 3/4 nipple temporarily. I replaced my drain valve with a full port ball valve on a nipple, and a garden hose thread adapter at the end of the valve.

 

[Atomic1]

It sounds like you've ruled out the heater. Is this maybe something to do with the PEX? I'd maybe start investigating your plumbing downstream of the heater.

 

[Wapa]

I'm still clueless. I spoke to a company that sells filters for the main line. He recommended taking a water sample to a pool supply store and have them test it for calcium part per gallon. I did that yesterday and the guy said our water is very SOFT!?!?! He said if it were my pool he's tell me to ADD calcium carbonate... So confused. Austin is known for having hard water. I don't see how we could have soft water.

When I drained the heater I let it completely drain, then closed the drain and flushed more cold water into it, then drained and repeated the loop several times. Then I left the drain open and opened the cold water on/off a few times. Still nothing coming out.

My latest guess is the interior lining of the hot water heater is failing and breaking apart, but only when heated. We heat to about 130 degrees I believe. The hotter we make it the worse it seems to be. Aside from that there's some buildup in the PEX that only seems to break off when the water is hot. I guess I'm going to cut into one of the hot water PEX lines and inspect it for buildup.

I'm also going to order a water testing kit from KAR Labs. Thanks for that suggestion.

Thanks,
Warren

 

[Reach4]

Then I left the drain open and opened the cold water on/off a few times. Still nothing coming out.

My latest guess is the interior lining of the hot water heater is failing and breaking apart, but only when heated.

I would think that would have washed some of the mystery stuff out.

Have you tried seeing if you can put it on a brick and make it glow red by using a torch? Do that at night if you want to see the glow. Also, if you see a flame color change other than orange, let us know. Sodium flame-tests as orange, and sodium is pretty much everywhere. Its flame test is so strong, that it it overpowers other things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_test

I am suspecting a plastic that melts at a high temperature or burns. So if you can make the sample glow from heat, and it does not burn or melt, that would pretty much exclude most plastics. https://www.thoughtco.com/high-temperature-thermoplastics-820349 says there are some plastics that can take really high temperatures however.

 

[PumpMd]

When I turn on any of our hot water lines I get a lot of white/cream colored particles. It resembles sand but is larger and is easily broken up between fingers.

When I find plastic pump impellers in your screen's, they do not get broken up between the fingers.

Post some good pictures (lighting) of what your finding.

 

[Wapa]

I don't have a torch on hard but that's a good idea. Here are some pictures. One is from running hot water though my bathroom faucet for about 10 seconds. The other is from a bag of this stuff we've collected which has completely dried.

 

[PumpMd]

I don't see how we could have soft water.

Are you on Rural Water? They get their water from wells

Have you checked with your neighbors to see if they are experiencing the same problem?

 

[Reach4]

The closeup is intriguing. It looks like the chips have a smooth side and a rougher side. The smooth side looks as if they may be slightly convex. If that is the case, is there a way that you can estimate the radius? It looks like they sloughed off of a smooth surface.

If you had an electric pressure washer, I would be tempted to play it inside of the water heater -- perhaps through the anode hole. Maybe you could remove the drain spout and use some tool to rake toward the hole. Could there be particles inside by the drain valve that were big enough to pass water but not debris?

 

[Jadnashua]

If it was a calcium based mineral, even with vinegar, after a day or so, it would show obvious evidence of dissolving. Most of the mineral deposits you can get out of liquid water will dissolve in acid. That implies something else. Most common water heaters use a glass coating on the insides. But, I think that there are some that may use a plastic coating. What brand and model of WH do you have? If it is the internal coating that is coming off, that implies the WH may be on its last legs.

Since you are on a municipal water supply, you can call them to get a water quality test report, which they are required to do at least annually, and make available to any customer, should they ask.

 

[Wapa]

Thanks guys. I spoke with the hot water heater company today (Rheem Fury - model # 42V75F). They said the inside is coated with glass or a high temp cured porcelain and should not break down, but it has an anode and that's the whole point of the "sacrificial" anode, right? Anyway, they were nice and listened at least. They recommended checking the anode and said that it almost certainly needs to be replaced. But still couldn't say what the substance was or if it was coming from the heater or the lines or what. I'll check the anode next.

@PumpMd This is city water. I'm slowly checking with neighbors to see if they are having ay similar issues.

@Reach4 I see what you see. One side appears to be smooth and the other rough. Unfortunately the largest chunk is still only millimeters. That zoomed in picture may be a bit misleading. I like the power washer idea. I'm going to take out the anode anyway so I'll give it a try.

Thanks,
Warren

 

[PumpMd]

I still got an old GE hot water tank that I can break open and show you what all the hard big chucks of calcium looks like when someone like me and a new home owner, didn't know there was maintenance to your hot water tank.

When I got some free time to break it open, I will post some pictures on here.

 

[PumpMd]

The first time(2010)around on this GE Hot Water Tank I had to break the really big hard chunks of calcium up to get them through the bottom heating element hole.

This is the build up it had in it after I replaced it about 8-9months ago.

The GE Hot Water Tank was either a 98-99 model.

The old school Hot Water Tanks use to be thick enough that could make a smoker out of them. The metal was to thin on this model.

 

[PumpMd]

Everything can be tested. I'm using Distilled White Vinegar and not Apple Cider Vinegar. This is from Raw Well Water that has everything in it. Basically, Non Treated Water or Unfiltered Water.

First picture is after 15mins and the second picture is after 30mins. I will post 1hr picture and 2hr picture as well.

 

[Valveman]

My water heater fills up with that stuff too. You can tell those little pieces form around the electric heating elements as they have the same semi-circular shape.