Help with Fleck 9000 setup!

[OldAtHeart]

Hello -

I just found this forum after googling for hours and hours trying to learn more about my Fleck 9000 setup. Happily surprised to see a whole section dedicated to water softeners!

Here is my situation (bear with me if I say anything too dumb, I’m just starting to learn about this stuff): I have what I believe is an older Fleck 9000 with a 1” meter and an extended dial that goes up to ~50x100 gallons. The head is washed out and the parts are 20 years old so I want to replace the whole head (valve and meter?)

I ordered a Fleck 9000 online and once it arrived I realized it looked different than my existing one. I didn’t realize there were 3/4” versions and 1” versions and I bought what turns out to be a 3/4” version which has a lower range dial that goes to 20x100. Now that I see there is a difference I tried searching all over for a new 1” version but they are impossible to find.

So now I am trying to figure out what the best way to solve this is? Seems like my options are as follows:

1) Find an exact replacement for my Fleck 9000 1” with extended dial. Seems impossible.

2) Somehow use this new 9000 with 3/4” meter, but that will require a yoke or bypass to connect to my existing 1” supply line? And the dial doesn’t go up as high as my existing one so I might be forced to regenerate more often than needed?

3) Find a different head altogether - maybe Fleck 9100 which I read multiple posts on here about, but do they make that in a 1” version?

I will include photos of my old setup and this new 9000 3/4” head that I bought so you can see the differences. Appreciate any and all suggestions! Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

Your white dot on the old unit was set to the 20. So that was set to 2000 gallons. If you moved the white dot to the 20 on the newer unit, that would be 2000 gallons.

As far as adapting plumbing, that should be doable. Will you lose too much pressure with the adapters? I doubt you would lose that much, but you would loose some. Is this for a house?

Somebody will probably have some better insight for you.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

If you had asked, you would have been advised to replace with a 9100 as the polymer valve body is supperior to the 9000 brass body. On most 9000, over time, the lower piston brass cylinder typically undergoes errosion/pitting which cannot be repaired, usually resulting in the necessity to replace the entire valve. That is not an issue with the 9100.

The 9100 is now commonly equipped with the SXT digital controller which offers more flexibility and straightforward programming compared to a mechanical metered control.

A bypass valve with either 3/4" or 1" inlet connections are available to fit 3/4" Fleck 9000, 9100, 5600 and 2510 valves. As you will need to modify your hard plumbed connections, you may want to consider flexible stainless steel connectors such as one of many types offered by Falcon Stainless. https://www.falconstainless.com/products/fleck-connector/

If your plumbing already incorporates a 3-valve bypass, a 1" threaded plastic connection yoke is available to connect directly to the meter assembly included on your new 9000 (or 9100).

I had considered it may be possible to remove the long meter/connection adaptor from the old valve for use on the new 9000 valve. Although the old meter does not appear to be an extended range version, an extended range meter will rotate 625 revolutions per gallon, but the standard range meter will rotate 125 rpg. I'm uncertain if the new meter cover will fit the old housing but if so, then you will likely need to use the old meter cable to provide sufficient length.

Whether you decide to use the 9000 already obtained, or trade for a 9100, to assist with appropriate programming, we will need to know each tank resin capacity or the tank measurements (both tanks will be identical), the raw water hardness, the BLFC flow rate which will normally be indicated on a label located close to the brine tube connection (shown 0.5 GPM on new 9000, 1 GPM on old valve). If the injector number or colour is indicated, that may be also useful.

As there may be an incorrect drain flow rate restrictor if any installed in the new valve, the restrictor will likely need to be swapped over from the old valve.

 

[OldAtHeart]

Thanks for the replies so far! Yes, the old one was set to 2000. I’m not sure if that is totally right for my needs or not but it’s what I’ve had for years. But I worry slightly that if I’ve been regenerating too often, and if I get stuck with this new dial that only goes to 2000, I won’t have any way to increase the capacity.

This is for a car wash, not a house. I just got the 9000 so I can still return it if needed. I do like the idea of the 9100 so I won’t have the same problem of it getting washed out. However, I can’t seem to find one with a 1” meter? I don’t really like the idea of going with a 3/4” meter since I’ll have less flow than before.

I know the tanks are 12” in diameter and hold 2.5cu of resin each since that was just replaced. I’ll measure the height later today. Also going to measure the water hardness. I will also try to find the flow rate.

In the mean time, would a 9100 with a 1” meter be possible to find somehow? If so, and suggestions? Thanks again!

 

[Bannerman]

A 1" meter is offered for 9100 valves.
https://www.pentair.com/en-us/produ...l-filtration-softening-valves/9100_valve.html

A 12" diameter tank is commonly 52" tall and is suitable for 2 cubic feet of resin, not 2.5 ft3. To provide sufficient FreeBoard space to backwash 2.5 ft3 resin, the appropriate tank dimension would be 13" X 54" each.

The most common recommendation for the best balance of Capacity, Hardness Reduction Efficiency and Water Quality will be to regenerate using 8 lbs salt per ft3 of resin per tank.

For 2 ft3 resin, 16 lbs salt will regenerate 48,000 grains capacity per cycle.
If for example, water hardness is 10 grains per gallon, then 4,800 gallons is possible before regeneration will be required. If water hardness is 20 gpg, then 2,400 gallons/cycle. If xx gpg, then xxxx gallons

If the tank sizes are 13" diameter containing 2.5 ft3 resin each, then 20 lbs salt will regenerate 60,000 grains capacity per tank.
@ 10 GPG hardness = 6,000 gallons. @ 20 GPG = 3,000 gallons etc.

 

[Reach4]

Also going to measure the water hardness.

Use the Hach 5-B test, rather than test strips.

There is also a high-hardness compensation that should be added to calculations. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....0-sxt-programming-settings.60651/#post-450189

 

[OldAtHeart]

Sorry - I have two locations and was getting them mixed up. The first location does have 13x54” tanks (just measured) and that’s what they used the 2.5cu each resin for. I’ll measure the tanks for the other location within the next hour which is the one I need to replace the head for.

I do see that Pentair makes a 1” meter version of the 9100 but I can’t seem to find a retailer that has one in stock?

 

[OldAtHeart]

Here is the information for my first location which I thought was ok but now I’m wondering - seems like this might not even be set properly?

Just measured hardness using a 5-B test kit twice and it’s about 15 grains hard. Tanks are 13x54” with 2.5cu resin each. Dial is set to around 20. Valve sticker says Injector 2, drain flow 3.5. It is a new Fleck 9000 with a 1” meter.

Is this one regenerating too often?

 

[Reach4]

Just measured hardness using a 5-B test kit twice and it’s about 15 grains hard. Tanks are 13x54” with 2.5cu resin each. Dial is set to around 20. Valve sticker says Injector 2, drain flow 3.5. It is a new Fleck 9000 with a 1” meter.

13 inch tank would normally call for a 4.0 DLFC, and a 14 inch tank would normally call for a 5.0 DLFC (drain line flow control).

3.5 gpm is for a 12 inch tank.

 

[OldAtHeart]

13 inch tank would normally call for a 4.0 DLFC, and a 14 inch tank would normally call for a 5.0 DLFC (drain line flow control).

3.5 gpm is for a 12 inch tank.

Interesting. Will that cause me any problems? Is it easy to swap out and would that be worth doing?

 

[Bannerman]

Capacity to be regenerated is directly proportional to the amount of brine available.

With 2.5 ft3 resin per tank, a 20 lb salt setting will regenerate 60,000 grains capacity per cycle.
The salt setting requires the front control panel to be swung outward on its hinge which will require the meter cable to be first disconnected from the meter. The brine cam should have the total lbs of salt indicated.

Each gallon of water entering the brine tank will dissolve 3 lbs salt, so for 20 lbs to be dissolved, 6.7 gallons will be required. Assuming the current salt setting is 10 lbs, then only 3.35 gallons will be currently within the brine tank so a further 3.5 gallons should be manually added when programming for 60K grains usable Capacity. When adding additional water, do not pour on top of dry salt but instead remove the cap from the brine well (4-5" plastic tube) and add the water into it.

Assuming your water is municipal, often water is obtained from multiple sources. Although the water for both locations maybe obtained from the same system, hardness can vary depending on each locations proximity to each well so don't assume both location's water hardness will be identical. Because the supply proportions to each location can vary depending on time of day water consumption within the city, distribution and well maintenance etc, it is advisable to calculate hardness to be 2-3 gpg higher than tested at each location, to anticipate the additional softener capacity to be depleted while hardness is greater than usual.

Utilizing 18 gpg, 60,000 gr / 18 = 3,333 gallons or the nearest lower gallons on the Capacity dial.

The drain flow restrictor governs the backwash and rapid Rinse rate during regeneration. The recommended 4 GPM drain flow rate will cause the resin to be lifted, expanded and redistributed within the tank during Backwash. The proper backwash flow rate will eliminate any debris that may have entered from the city while also eliminating broken and worn resin granules. It will also cause the brine to have more complete contact with the resin, and reclassification will eliminate channeling which improves softener performance.

 

[OldAtHeart]

Still trying to understand all of this but wow thank you for taking the time to explain in such detail.

This is what the dial on the inside of the meter looks like. Is this what you’re referring to?

 

[OldAtHeart]

At the second location now (which is the one I need a new head for). The tanks here are 12x52, and the water hardness also seems to be around 15 testing it a few times.

 

[Bannerman]

I was thinking there was a separate brine control, but the dial in the photo, provides all of the timer setting adjustments. With that dial, both pins and holes are time settings of 2-minutes each.

Starting at the 4 pins @ position 0, 4 pins = 8-minutes Backwash.

Next is 30 holes = 60-minutes Brine Draw/Slow Rinse.

Next is 3 pins = 6 minutes Rapid Rinse.

Next is 3 holes = 6-minutes Brine Fill. Assuming this valve is equipped with a 1 GPM BLFC, 6-minutes Brine Fill will result in 6-gallons entering the brine tank X 3 lbs/gallon = 18 lbs salt dissolved per cycle.

The last 2 pins that are together, tell the controller that is the end of the regen cycle.

As you will require 20 lbs salt to regenerate 60,000 grains capacity, remove the pin inserted into the hole @ 80 minutes, and reinstall that pin into the hole at 84-minutes. This will allow 4 holes or 8 minutes for Brine Fill which will result in 24 lbs salt to be dissolved.

Unfortunately, because each home signifies 2-minutes, and with a 1 GPM BLFC restrictor, any Brine Fill adjustment will cause a difference of 6lbs salt, thereby making it impossible to obtain a 20-lb setting.

If the 1 GPM BLFC was replaced with a 0.5 GPM version, then the Brine Fill time could be increased to 7 holes = 14 minutes X 0.5 GPM = 7 gallons X 3 lbs/gallon = 21 lbs salt to regen 60K grains. A 0.5 BLFC flow restrictor would result in less salt utilized each cycle, thereby improving efficiency.

 

[OldAtHeart]

The one I posted the dial picture of actually does have 0.5 GPM. Here is a photo of it. So if I change it to 7 holes for brine fill, would I also need to adjust the gallon wheel on the front?

 

[Bannerman]

Yes, 7 holes will result in 21 lbs salt being dissolved. 20 lbs is suitable to regenerate 60,000 grains so the extra 1 lb is OK.

60,000 grains / 18 gpg = 3,333 gallon setting on capacity dial.

 

[OldAtHeart]

Thank you again - amazed by the level of knowledge here! I will give this a try when I am there in the morning. To make sure I understand, I would increase the last set of holes from 3 to 7, and then increase the gallon wheel from 20 to 33. And I would also have to manually add another 4 gallons of water to the brine tube (to go from the current 3 gallons due to the 3 holes in the dial to the new 7 gallons for 7 holes)?

Edit: I should note that since this is for a commercial car wash, so the more important factor is the softest water possible. If I use a bit extra salt to get down to 1 grain of hardness I am ok with that. Would changing the settings as described above produce the softest water possible?

 

[Bannerman]

1 grain per gallon is equivalent to 17.1 ppm hardness which is the same as 17.1 mg/L.

The 8 lbs/ft3 salt setting recommended, will allow hardness leakage of up to 6ppm, significantly softer than 1gpg. I anticipate that setting is more than sufficient for a car wash application.

While less hardness leakage is possible, that will require a significantly greater amount of salt per cycle. For example, to reduce hardness leakage to 1ppm as typically needed for steam boiler refill and some manufacturing processes, would require at minimum 15 lbs salt/ft3 or 37.5 lbs salt each cycle for a 2.5 ft3 softener.

If you are expecting softened water to eliminate spotting, that is not reality. Minerals that cause hardness such as calcium and magnesium, will result in hard to remove spot residue when water evaporates. Softening will remove those mineral ions by exchanging them with sodium ions. Although spots will continue to occur after the water is evaporated, the resulting sodium residue is easier to wipe away compared to the minerals the sodium replaces.

The chart below displays the relationship of salt quantity to the usable capacity to be regenerated for various resin quantities. To compare each salt quantity, at the bottom of each column is shown the amount of hardness leakage, hardness removal efficiency and water quality to be expected.

 

[OldAtHeart]

Thanks again for all of the helpful info. I am not expecting this soft water to be spotless - we have a separate RO system that passes the soft water through a membrane to produce our Spot Free water. But in general the soft water helps make the soap foam better, prevents fittings from corroding, etc.

I will attempt to change the settings and run it that way for a few days and test the water quality and see how it goes!

 

[Bannerman]

After changing settings, no change to capacity or water quality will be seen until after each tank is regenerated using the new settings.