HELP!!! Why does my water turn brown when chlorine is added?

[Charlie Bosco]

Here is all the detail I can provide.
Well water - Tested No Iron no bacteria Hardess was like 300
Tons of Hydrogen Sulfide which is why I added the Katalox to the system. That was added a few months ago and the Carbon Filter was just rebedded last month.

Water Treatment Water flow
Well
5 Micron Filter
Kinetico Water Softener ( I have a constant drip of ResCare)
Katalox AIO System
Catalytic Carbon
House

Today I noticed that if I left Chlorine based toilet cleaner in the bowl for 20 minutes it turned the water brown. I have done this in the past and have NEVER noticed this before.

So to test this.. I put treated water in one container and untreated right from the well in another
I dropped a small chlorine tablet into each one and water and stirred them up.. Waited a few minutes and bam! Turned brown! WTF is going on? See attached photo..

I decided to also grab the pool kit and test before and after PH and Alkalinity
Untreated
PH 7.2
Alkalinity 320

Treated
PH 7.6
Alkalinity 400

****EDIT****
Narrowed down to the Katalox filter. I took separate samples of water from directly after the Water Softener, And then directly after the Katalox. The Katalox water Turned Brown and the Water softener did not. soooooo

Can anyone tell me what is going on? I have also since added Salt with Iron Fighter. While I dont have iron, they use citric acid which I thought may keep my resin spotless since I have the rescare drip as well. Something being added/created in the water by the Katalox is causing a chemical reaction to the Chlorine

This is a disturbing situation..

 

[Reach4]

Impressive.

Try that again in a clear glass or a clear glass jar.

Or just pour the brown water into a glass. Let it sit overnight or so, and see if the brown settles to the bottom. The thought would be that the brown is precipitated rust.

So why would the water after the KL have so much iron? How long have you had the AIO? Do you clean that system?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

Why is the Katalox Light AIO system located before after the softener? Although you said your well water contains no iron, the KL filter should be located before the softener.

What is the purpose of the 5-micron filter? A 5-micron cartridge filter may be too restrictive to provide sufficient flow to backwash the KL media, particularly when debris has accumulated on the cartridge. What size is your KL AIO system, and what is the backwash flow rate?

If there is visible sediment from the well, you may wish to consider a less restrictive filter such as an Atlas Filtri Hydra which will permit accumulated debris to be simply flushed to drain. If there is excessive sediment, a purge kit may be added to automatically flush the filter on an ongoing schedule.

If sediment is not visible, KL media will provide filtration down to 3-5 microns and any debris that enters from the well will be regularly flushed out from the media to drain.

 

[Skyjumper]

+1 for a dirty Katalox filter. your softener is staying clean because you're using both phosphoric acid and citirc acid to keep it clean, but the katalox filter is a dirty dog, and its downstream of your softener (which is odd, and probably not the right way to do it). there's a few threads here that go into great detail on cleaning a katalox filter. you will have to clean the media (or replace it) and clean the valve, and possibly replace the internal valave parts. you're probably also going to have to clean or rebed that carbon filter its certainly plugged up as well. then you're going to have to replumb the whole setup to put things in proper order. but at least your softener is clean. if you put the other filters in bypass you will probably have better water.

 

[LLigetfa]

Why is the Katalox Light AIO system located AFTER the softener?

TIFIFY

 

[Bannerman]

Thanks LL! Edited

 

[Reach4]

Why is the Katalox Light AIO system located before after the softener? Although you said your well water contains no iron, the KL filter should be located before the softener.

I had not noticed that. I would think that would make it harder to get enough backwash on the KL, plus you want the KL to address iron rather than the softener.

 

[Charlie Bosco]

Ok, For the question posed why the KL After the Softener.. I already asked that question before installing it.. The replies were it does not matter.. I was concerned that since the Kinetico does not have a timer.. It may kick off a regen in the middle of a KL backwash. Well everyone replied dont worry.. it wont happen that often at 2am. Regardless. Currently there is more than enough backwash flow as I measured the 7gpm as per the DLFC that came with the Katalox and it was good.

For those who say Iron.. Is it normal for a well that tested 0 iron... Magically load up with enough iron to throw my whole system out of whack? We have had like 10" of rain this month and the yard was flooded most of the time.. Would that do anything?

Back to the point.. What chemically is being changed or created by the KL that causes the water to react and turn brown??? I plan to run another test as suggested.. see if the water settles clear again with sediment on the bottom.

I did just read manganese turns brown with chlorine. Found on a pool site.
"Water that turns brown when you add chlorine is a VERY strong indication of metal contamination. Brownish orange is iron; brownish black (coffee) is manganese. Iron is much more common than manganese, but both occur frequently."

So if this is true.. What is causing my KL filter to push out Manganese when none existed before it entered the KL? Is my water softener dissolving my KL Manganese Dioxide?

 

[Reach4]

Ok, For the question posed why the KL After the Softener.. I already asked that question before installing it.. The replies were it does not matter.. I was concerned that since the Kinetico does not have a timer.. It may kick off a regen in the middle of a KL backwash. Well everyone replied dont worry.. it wont happen that often at 2am.

Where was that thread with the off-base replies?

With the KL after the Kintetico, the KL backwash would make it fairly likely that the softener would start a regen during the KL backwash.

 

[Bannerman]

What chemically is being changed or created by the KL that causes the water to react and turn brown???

Both chlorine and KL media will cause dissolved Hydrogen Sulphide to become oxidized and converted to undissolved solids which will be filtered out by the KL media. While the solid sediment will be typically Yellow, reactions with other minerals and metals within the water may cause the sediment to become darker in colour.

When designing a treatment system, all water conditions need to be considered which is why a comprehensive lab test report is required.

Treatment order is important. KL placed before the softener will typically remove elements that may cause the softener resin to become fouled.

Since your well water is not chlorinated, a carbon filter placed after the softener is usually OK but because a Kinetico WS is turbine-driven and will regenerate immediately once the programmed capacity has been consumed, it is then recommended to place the WS as the last treatment device. With the WS before the KL and Carbon filters, the water utilized to backwash the KL and/or carbon may cause the WS to immediately regenerate. Depending on the KL & carbon BW time settings, 2 or possibly 3 devices could all be regenerating/BWing at the same time. When the WS is the last treatment device, water utilized to BW either the KL or carbon system, will not cause the WS to regenerate.

Currently there is more than enough backwash flow as I measured the 7gpm as per the DLFC that came with the Katalox and it was good.

You haven't stated the tank diameter for the KL or the control valve it is equipped with. The tank diameter and incoming water temperature will dictate the amount of BW required. Since it seems there is sediment remaining within the KL media, perhaps the BW rate, frequency or duration is insufficient.

Although the drain flow rate for the KL may have been measured while the filter cartridge was new, the flow rate can be considerably reduced once sediment has collected on the cartridge. The KL BW rate will be further reduced if either the WS or carbon systems are also undergoing regeneration/BW at the same time.

 

[Bannerman]

In rereading your initial post, it appears not all of the H2S is being fully oxidized in the KL AIO system. You said there is tons of H2S but I do not recall seeing an actual quantity stated.

Perhaps Ozone instead of air will be more effective oxidant for your AIO system. Other options include Hydrogen Peroxide or chlorine injected before a contact tank.

 

[Charlie Bosco]

Why is the Katalox Light AIO system located before after the softener? Although you said your well water contains no iron, the KL filter should be located before the softener.

What is the purpose of the 5-micron filter? A 5-micron cartridge filter may be too restrictive to provide sufficient flow to backwash the KL media, particularly when debris has accumulated on the cartridge. What size is your KL AIO system, and what is the backwash flow rate?

If there is visible sediment from the well, you may wish to consider a less restrictive filter such as an Atlas Filtri Hydra which will permit accumulated debris to be simply flushed to drain. If there is excessive sediment, a purge kit may be added to automatically flush the filter on an ongoing schedule.

If sediment is not visible, KL media will provide filtration down to 3-5 microns and any debris that enters from the well will be regularly flushed out from the media to drain.

Thanks for the replies.. I agree that I should have stuck with my first thought of re routing the Katalox to be first.. I heard other tell me no worries.

I realize now that rerouting will be much simpler than thought. I can simply move it so it looks like this..

Why is the Katalox Light AIO system located before after the softener? Although you said your well water contains no iron, the KL filter should be located before the softener.

What is the purpose of the 5-micron filter? A 5-micron cartridge filter may be too restrictive to provide sufficient flow to backwash the KL media, particularly when debris has accumulated on the cartridge. What size is your KL AIO system, and what is the backwash flow rate?

If there is visible sediment from the well, you may wish to consider a less restrictive filter such as an Atlas Filtri Hydra which will permit accumulated debris to be simply flushed to drain. If there is excessive sediment, a purge kit may be added to automatically flush the filter on an ongoing schedule.

If sediment is not visible, KL media will provide filtration down to 3-5 microns and any debris that enters from the well will be regularly flushed out from the media to drain.

I agree that I need to replumb this to do put the Katalox first, Carbon filter, then Water Softener. However this still needs to be figured out. I did the sediment test as suggested earlier.. The brown water did in fact settle with an orange sediment.

Why is the Katalox Light AIO system located before after the softener? Although you said your well water contains no iron, the KL filter should be located before the softener.

What is the purpose of the 5-micron filter? A 5-micron cartridge filter may be too restrictive to provide sufficient flow to backwash the KL media, particularly when debris has accumulated on the cartridge. What size is your KL AIO system, and what is the backwash flow rate?

If there is visible sediment from the well, you may wish to consider a less restrictive filter such as an Atlas Filtri Hydra which will permit accumulated debris to be simply flushed to drain. If there is excessive sediment, a purge kit may be added to automatically flush the filter on an ongoing schedule.

If sediment is not visible, KL media will provide filtration down to 3-5 microns and any debris that enters from the well will be regularly flushed out from the media to drain.

To answer a few questions that came up..

I forgot to mention I have a 50 micron spin down in front of the 5 Micron spun filter. I was also planning to replace the Standard sized filter with a Big Blue 20"

Katalox AIO 10x54 with Vortech tank Fleck 2510 AIO

Catalytic Carbon 10x54 standard tank Mechanical Fleck 2510

I said a ton of Sulfur.. Did not measure it. But the raw hose water smells like a fresh cow fart in the face. So not faint at all.

I agree that I need to replumb this to do put the Katalox first, Carbon filter, then Water Softener. Maybe things are being converted inadvertently by the softener that would not happen if the water flowed through the Katalox first.. However this still needs to be figured out. I did the sediment test as suggested earlier..

The brown water did in fact settle with an orange sediment. I used the Pool Test Container because its clear. See Pics What exactly is this sediment? and is it being caused by the WS being first in line?

Can the placement of these items really be the cause of the issue here?

My thought now is that the since the aeration will be the very first thing introduced, the water will now have more contact time as the WS will now be included in the aeration process and not be affected by backwashing KL or Carbon.

 

[Charlie Bosco]

Where was that thread with the off-base replies?

With the KL after the Kintetico, the KL backwash would make it fairly likely that the softener would start a regen during the KL backwash.

Here is the thread where I asked if the KL should be in front of the Water Softener..
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-and-kinetico-2060s-softener-questions.88873/

 

[Reach4]

Here is the thread where I asked if the KL should be in front of the Water Softener..
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-and-kinetico-2060s-softener-questions.88873/

In #1 on that thread, you proposed to have the KL in front of the softener.

In #3 I suggested a different order, but still with the KL before the softener.
My suggested order change was mainly to avoid a cartridge filter before the KL, because KL takes a lot of backwashing. Plus, the KL acts as a backwashing 5 micron filter.

Cartridge filter before vs after the softener each has its advantage.

 

[ditttohead]

KL, Carbon, softener. Retest for iron, and yes, water in a well can change constantly, this is normal and expected in many regions. Other areas, the well water can stay consistent for decades. You are welcome to mail me a sample of your untreated and treated water, I can run a few tests for you to see what may be going on.

 

[Charlie Bosco]

In #1 on that thread, you proposed to have the KL in front of the softener.

In #3 I suggested a different order, but still with the KL before the softener.
My suggested order change was mainly to avoid a cartridge filter before the KL, because KL takes a lot of backwashing. Plus, the KL acts as a backwashing 5 micron filter.

Cartridge filter before vs after the softener each has its advantage.

Thanks I did see that you did ultimately suggest to change the order and understand its the "preferred" way. To have the WS last. That being said, is what I am seeing because I have them reversed? There is clearly residue that settled. And is is being caused because I have them reversed? Will it go way if I reconfigure it? Or is this come directly from the Katalox output. That residue concerns me. What exactly is it? and do you think this residue would be caught by the WS before it heads to my house? Assuming its mineral or metallic based?

I do plan to redo the layout soon. I will take your suggestion and I will just use the KL as my primary filter after the spindown. My KL gets BW nightly anyway. I am really concerned that this will still be the case afterwards.

 

[Reach4]

Or is this come directly from the Katalox output. That residue concerns me. What exactly is it?

Ferrous iron in the clear water got turned to ferric iron (rust) by the bleach. That is troubling, because both the softener and the KL should have dealt with that ferrous iron. With the softener seeing the max iron, that might be overwhelmed.

Presumably not enough oxygen in the water for the KL to deal with the iron.

 

[Charlie Bosco]

KL, Carbon, softener. Retest for iron, and yes, water in a well can change constantly, this is normal and expected in many regions. Other areas, the well water can stay consistent for decades. You are welcome to mail me a sample of your untreated and treated water, I can run a few tests for you to see what may be going on.

Thanks for the offer.. As I mentioned, we had over 10" of rain the past month. God knows whats happening below..
I do believe my well is not too deep so not to hit the iron. But the tradeoff was sulfur. I have only been in the home 3 years so I dont know the details except I have a shallow suction type well.

 

[Charlie Bosco]

Ferrous iron in the clear water got turned to ferric iron (rust) by the bleach. That is troubling, because both the softener and the KL should have dealt with that ferrous iron. With the softener seeing the max iron, that might be overwhelmed.

Presumably not enough oxygen in the water for the KL to deal with the iron.

I am drying out the liquid in a shallow dish so I can get a better look at the residue once its dry. I have significant doubts its iron. Here are the results from a test I had done 2 years ago shortly after I moved in. Before treatment and after the water softener. I am sure I should have tested for other things.. but these 2 were the biggest on my hit list.

 

[Reach4]

I have significant doubts its iron.

Given that 0.0235 iron number on your water test, I share your doubt. So either not iron, or your water changed.

Do you know what iron tastes like in water? Maybe taste your raw water, if so.