Flood Test for Barrier Free (Hobless or No Dam) Shower / Wet Room

[JohnfrWhipple]

This week my blog pages are getting searched for images on flood testing procedures for barrier free showers. Shower that have no curb or no dam (Hobless as they say in Australia). So how do you flood test a barrier free shower.

I have found many different ways of doing this and have found that the two simplest approaches both involve some kind of temporary dam and some added waterproofing.

Aquadefence flood test with temporary dam

NobleSeal TS flood test using a drop down design​

When building a barrier free shower you need to plan this. You also need to decide if you are going to flood test the entire room or just the shower's primary wet zone.

How do you waterproof the toilet connection?

How do you waterproof the tub's connection?

How do you stop capillary action?

So much to understand. I wonder if any of the leading manufactures have printed instructions for all those keeners who love to read info right from the manufacture. A simple Google search today landed me here on another tile forum. No pictures. No useful info at all. No surprise really, this type of install is a little out of that groups realm.

So the pictures above found here on Terry's Forum. What I want to know is what do the manufactures recommend. Do they have printed guidelines?

I think this is a fun exercise that will ultimately prove a point to anyone playing along at home. When it comes to flood testing a wet room you better make sure the person doing it has a strong handle on the key steps. Some of my flood tests have been massive. One leak or a blow out temporary dam would be an epic fail.

Lets see the links to manufactures recommendations on temporary dams for barrier free showers.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

This curbless shower passed a two week flood test but failed my inspection. This is a drop down shower build. Looking at this shower you might think all is OK. But you would be wrong.

I found the liner to be seamed with the wrong glue. I found no proper corner details on half the inside corners.

I found no proper outside corner details.

Under the liner was a 2"x4".

I repaired everything and flood test the new membrane.

Here is the change:

 

[Sponsor]

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

This is a temporary dam using Mapeband. Many of you might find it crazy but the Mapeband I find works just as well with Hydro Ban.

This shower part of a pool house shower in UBC.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Another Mapeband Example.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

This is not the right time to flood test your Kerdi Shower. This lady asked back in July why the shower still looks wet after 24 hours. It's odd no one answered her questions.

Odder still no one said anything about the trowel lines showing under the Kerdi.

I think Schluter recommends silicone and a 2"x4" for a temporary flood test. I might be wrong but pretty sure I laughed when I read that advice.

This lady should have been told that the shower pan most likely has a little dip and this is why it's not drying out.

She should have been told when she posted this picture that the Kerdi looks poorly installed.

Bathroom Redo
​

Imagine if these where my work pictures. Jim would have a bird. Quote this and that, yet on the other forum none of the pros offer up an opinion. No one tells the lady that the trowel lines should not be seen so weak like this.

After 24 hours a Kerdi shower should not look this wet. Not if it was graded properly. And the flood test should be done before tiling the walls.

 

[Eurob]

Lets see the links to manufactures recommendations on temporary dams for barrier free showers.

At least it is a big improvement from 2010 to 2014 , John .

What is a water test? How do I perform one on the Schluter®-Shower System?

A. A water test is a quality control check performed on any shower installation before setting tile. It basically consists of stopping the waste line with a test plug and filling the base of the shower stall with water to check for leaks. You can quickly check the test plug by filling the pipe and drain with water up to the height of the KERDI-DRAIN integrated bonding flange (or a little below). If the plug is watertight, then you can continue filling the assembly. The water level is marked and the assembly is left for a specified amount of time (24 hours is typical). If there are no leaks, the shower passes.

Notes:

We recommend waiting a minimum of 24 hours after setting KERDI to begin water testing. This will allow the thin-set mortar to reach final set and ensure watertight performance at the seams under normal curing conditions (i.e., room temperature). If temperatures are much lower (e.g., around 50 or 60 degrees), then it is best to wait longer.

If you are building a barrier-free shower, then you will need to provide a temporary dam (e.g., a 2x4 and silicone sealant) at the threshold.

from here .

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

So Schluter wants a 2"x4" and Silicone.

Really that is just dumb. The wood can absorb water. What if the 2"x4" is warped? What kind of silicone? How long till it dries? How do you remove it later?

So many questions. When I used Kerdi (I don't any longer) I made my temporary dams with Ardex 8+9 and kerdi Band. Like they do in Germany. In England. In Spain. In Holland. You get the idea.

You got to laugh when you goggle Schluter Temporary Dam not one single image comes up. I thought everyone used it? LOL NOT

 

[Eurob]

Yeah , that area -- the example - needs improvement LOL .


But if you look at the wording --- A water flooding test is a Quality Control check --- then you need to ask yourself ...... why did they do that ......it is not promoting any 2 days shower build ........ no advantages over other types of waterproofing .

Flooding tests must be done , regardless of the time frame . If you look for quality build showers , you ALSO look for Quality Control .

I think adding to the example materials kerdi band or similar will be a good idea . But photos -- sharing -- come from hands on experience .... you should be glad you have them -- photos and experience -- John .

 

[ShowerDude]

Again, an oppty. to learn something and improve....... great topic.

I recently had a slight wicking issue with a flood test. in 36+ hrs barely noticeable but it proved to me the absolute importance of a temp damn or cappilary break if its a true curbless. I have not had any wicking up and over the drop down recessed curbless showers ive built.

In this case there was a good amount of thinset residue in the area of the wicking which was also back pitched into the pan and later to have a glass channel in place. water was trying to chase the thinset that wanted water?

I learn how to build better on every shower.. This site as of late has been a real help....

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Barrier Free Flood Tests - Schluter's complete temporary dam guide: (e.g., a 2x4 and silicone sealant) at the threshold. (http://www.schluter.com/8_4_kerdi_shower_kit_6551.aspx)

What is that 1o words maybe on curbless showers flood testing? - Not much help.

At the very least, Schluter is hinting how to do it or referencing that one needs to be done - but that does not tell someone the whole story.

I have built roughly a dozen temporary dams in the past five years. No two the same. Not once have I used only a 2"x4" and some silicone.

If someone says silicone a 2"x4" to their Kerdi shower floor and leaked - who's fault is that? Installer Error. The 2"x4" was not export grade - is that ok? Can a Finger Joint stud be used? Is the 2"x4" OK to be fir or should it be spruce? Does the silicone go under the stud or on the edge?

Here is how I made a temporary dam for a Kerdi Shower Flood Test. This pictures is a couple years old. Back when I was still using this German Membrane called Kerdi DS.

I did not use any silicone. I did use two 2"x4" 's - but I did not silicone them in place I weighted them with tiles and boxes of tile.

I did use Ardex 8+9. I did use SK Mesh. I did use Kerdi Band.

Because you can not bond directly Kerdi or Kerdi DS to a clamping drain you see a different material used for this job. The blue membrane is NobleSeal TS. The black product is Ardex 8+9.

This installation shows my version of a divot style shower build. I built this shower pan for my buddy. Turned out amazing.

My favourite photo from this job.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Lets pick on Noble Company now.

I don't think I have ever seen a reference for temporary dams on anything I have read from them. That said most times I call and chat to Eric or Richard with my questions.

I goggle this morning for advice from Noble Company.

I found this leak test video online featuring a Noble FreeStyle Linear Drain. This is not really a good video showing a proper function test. You need to be in the shower and using it to test it. The key test point is what happens when the hand held sprayer is allowed to soak the door to the shower.

In the video the builder used two hinge doors as door and divider. This design element is one I have used in the past as well myself.

Noble Company Water Test - Curbless, Hobless, No Dam Shower​

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Send this email off the the Noble Boys. Just now.

Good Morning Eric.

I’m blogging about barrier free shower flood tests this week.

Does Noble Company have any recommendations in your online printable media content? Schluter has ten words that say something like use a 2”x4” and some silicone. That’s it.

I searched this morning and can't find nothing from Noble Company.

I know how to do it. I’m looking for what ever you might have currently.

Do you email out a diagram? Can you?

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Standard Guide for Flood Testing Horizontal Waterproofing Installations

So I have all ready heard back from Eric and Richard from the Noble Company. The guidelines for a barrier free shower flood test are outlined in ASTM D5957 ($42.00 ASTM). These are the recommendations you should follow.

I have send a second request for information out to Mapei Technical.

Researching for "free copies of ASTM D5957" - I found this useful PDF File from Laticrete.

Laticrete TDS169
free - this is not the official guide​

ASTM D5957 - 98(2013)
Standard Guide for Flood Testing Horizontal Waterproofing Installations
$42.00
​

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Technical Support call from Mapei

I heard back from Mapei an hour ago and I had the chance to ask about any printed recommendations for barrier free showers. It was suggested to me to inquire with the plumbing inspector on my projects. Mapei has no pdf file or illustration for this step availble currently. Today I spoke with Shawn.

This pre-build meeting something I have had to do with a couple municipalities here in Vancouver all ready. I needed to clear the shower build in a Burnaby curbless shower (three years back) and again in a Downtown Vancouver barrier free build (two summers ago). With both of these meetings the inspectors wanted to see the products IAPMO certification and ANSI 118.10 approval.

These meetings where short and both times I prepared simple sketches of the rooms and had all ready printed off the IAPMO certificates. Both times the inspectors kept the IAPMO reports on file.

 

[ShowerDude]

All good info.... John where and how do you find the time to keep up!!!

Ill bet w/the new fads of linear drains /curbless/barrier free we will see a lot of interesting tear outs next few years?

I think we have got to treat it as a total wetroom if curbless...... period.? Capilary break mandatory as well as flood tests.

Note to self: next time force client into total wetroom or pass on job.

 

[Eurob]

John , why the interest in a diagram from manufacturers for a temporary dam ?


Here is some diagram from some education university -- NC State -- for curbless shower , an installation guide .

Semi- permanent or removable dam -- page 13 --

However , I didn't see any mention of test flooding the shower . It seems that in 2003 , the flooding was(n't) an option , right ? LOL

 

[Eurob]

I think we have got to treat it as a total wetroom if curbless...... period. Capilary break mandatory as well as flood tests.

Note to self: next time force client into total wetroom or pass on job.

I agree .

This is also interesting Trench drain
I

 

[ShowerDude]

Roberto.... Nice archiving i think the NC state pdf has some valid yet outdated points...


Im thinking a corner profile edge permanant with the waterprrofing tied into it as a stop for wicking if the rest of bathroom floor is not waterpoofed... I like the NC state idea of a sweep type gasket sticking up proud of tile surface too........(combine the 2 ? Did i just develop a new product appllication??) !

Even with back pitch and proper grading water can wick right past a curbless entry

Im typing on my iphone! Away from laptop.

 

[Eurob]

Roberto.... Nice archiving i think the NC state pdf has some valid yet outdated points...

It was more for the diagram ....but being outdated combined with talented installers .....sounds more like this

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Another angle of the barrier free shower flood test. The blue membrane is NobleSeal CIS.