Ethics Question

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by Cass, Jun 29, 2007.

  1. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Occupation:
    Sensitivity trainer.. and plumber of mens souls
    Location:
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
    ethics

    the company you are talking about is
    probably one that begins or ends with
    r in it..

    they are big here and I pity the fools that work
    for that place......


    they usually getfed a big line of hooey about
    how much money that they will make on comissioin....

    then they have to lease a truck from R and its
    usually their problem to maintian the piece of junk
    they are driveing too.. it is usually beaten up pretty
    badly by the last
    sucker that worked their

    .

    all jobs are taken on ....
    in every neighborhood good or
    bad night or day...nothing can be turned down.


    they have sort of been given a liscense to steal
    because usually everything above the parts costs
    is split 70 --30....



    once they figure out that they are really just stealing
    for their Company with no real future working for the place
    this side work starts to happen....


    eventually either they wise up , quit and move on


    or their leased truck breaks down and they cant afford to
    fix it and move on


    or they steal too much from someone
    for their employeer and both of them land in hot water....
    of course the boss washes his hands and denies everything
    and this "employee theif" is usually let go......



    its no place anyone should have to work
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2007
  2. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    Plumber, self employed
    Location:
    Licensed Grump

    My thoughts EXACTLY...this is why I opted for the "unethical" at first, he shouldn't be working for them @ 30% if he supplies his own tools, gas, time estimating...etc.
    On the other hand, it IS his choice to work for them...part of me wonders that maybe because he decided to, then he should abide by conscience.
    I'd looked into a "service" online that offered work to licensed subs a few years back, they offered me 50% after stock, worked at THEIR rates, but I was responsible for everything, liability, permits, insurance...etc, I shot them down.
     
  3. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

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    disabled-retired industrial fabricator
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    200 miles south of Little Rock
    Yes, and viewed from any angle, the matter of personal character (as opposed to "situation ethics") is always the bottom line. A worker (or even an outright slave) can either accept or reject any terms placed before him, yet those terms, however good or bad, do not then give him or her liberties beyond the initial arrangement.
     
  4. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    This isn't relevant, but Lee...please..DON'T change that ICON...ever.
     
  5. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    True that, but one factor regarding the "terms" was Cass's mention of "nothing in writing".
    silly thought...if the "employed" plumber in question were an ex-lawyer...maybe it's ethical (pun INTENDED...lawyers need not be offended!)
     
  6. Verdeboy

    Verdeboy In the Trades

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    "Ethics" refer to an external code of rules and policies, which can be adhered to or not, which can be enforced or not, which vary from culture to culture and situation to situation.

    "conscience" is a guiding force that is internal, always with us, and can help us deal with every situation.

    Most of the problems in human society are the result of not following, or losing our connection to, our conscience.

    IMHO, If you're so miserable with the company you work for that you try to screw them at every turn, it's time to find a different company to work for.
     
  7. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

    Joined:
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    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
    quote of the day......

    From VERDEBOY
    IMHO, If you're so miserable with the company you work for that you try to screw them at every turn, it's time to find a different company to work for.[/quote]



    most of these fellows could not get a job anywhere else
    because of the little scams that they pulled with more
    legit places that they worked at......

    thats why they are where they are.
    they are on the bottom rung already

    .


    Right now their are a number of clowns like this in our town
    that absolutely no-one will hire anymmore..literally EVERYONE
    knows of them and everyone knows that they are nothing but trouble

    they always lie on their work applications ....

    But All I got to do is call around to a number of differnet plumbers in town and
    ask if "joe bighead" ever worked for them
    and usually one of them
    will need to vent off some steam about
    "old joe" and tell me the whole story...




    so eventually they finally end up at...... R....

    or they could move up to Chicago....
    and start over with a semi-clean slate.......



    kharma...... what goes around comes around.....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2007
  8. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

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    Location:
    200 miles south of Little Rock
    Hey, watch it there! :)
     
  9. v10rick

    v10rick New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    The IRS is focusing on trades that typically do not report income like this.

    If the mechanic is willing to provide his SS# with the understanding that he will receive a 1099 at the end of the year he may not be so willing to undercut his boss.

    Does the homeowner realize that they could be responsible for taxes, interest and penalties if they are audited?

    As a matter of principal I would refuse to do business with anyone that cannot provide a invoice with a tax id number.
     
  10. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Location:
    Ohio

    You need to explain to me, cause I have no Idea how this could be??????
     
  11. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    Licensed Grump
    I save records & pay on all my work.
    H.O'.s can claim on property if they sell it that year (as an investment expense).
    Rental properties as well.
    Thats my best guess at what he meant.
     
  12. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Location:
    Ohio
    The IRS can only track $$$ if there is a SS# attached to it.

    They will not and do not try and catch someone pocketing $1000.00

    They don't have the man power / money / to waste on small potatoes when they can find people who owe $100s of thousands or millions and have the $$$ that they can take.

    If people took the time to read and understand Title 26 (IRS code) they would know that 98- 99% of the people living and working in states had no tax liability and were not require file.
     
  13. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Occupation:
    Service Plumber, Outdoor Temperature Relief Owner
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati Area
    Fig Newtons and Ham sandwich

    Here's the bottom line:


    You take money from anyone, ANYONE, in the form of a check, it is a paper trail....period.


    If you take money from a customer and put it through your personal name instead of the business a audit will show up on those "deposits" to your personal accounts and you'll have to provide some valid reason for the check amount and what was involved.

    I know a builder who got pegged to the wall for not claiming side jobs through his work. You can't be depositing 1000's of dollars into your personal accounts and saying that was play money. Doesn't work that way. The IRS cometh and taketh, and punisheth.

    What they did for torment was wait 4 years till they busted him. All those penalties and interest over 4 years cost him the price of a house. And the guarantee of future audits.
     
  14. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

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    disabled-retired industrial fabricator
    Location:
    200 miles south of Little Rock
    So then, it is sometimes okay to lie, cheat, steal, deceive, take advantage, be disrespectful ... or what?

    Not everyone has the same "conscience". We all know we should not steal, yet some folks would have no problem, and/or would actually feel completely justified taking home just about anything from a paper clip to the boss's wife. So then:

    ... and if those are not absolute, what reason is there to bother with them at all?
     
  15. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    disabled-retired industrial fabricator
    Location:
    200 miles south of Little Rock
    Yes. Only actual gains through commerce can be taxed, not personal income. But, police-state socialism is now upon us.
     
  16. Verdeboy

    Verdeboy In the Trades

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    Jun 12, 2006
    Rules and laws have historically, and continue to be, created, by those in power. Hence, it was totally legal and proper to own slaves and annihilate the indigenous people of this land we call the USA. So, thank goodness those ethics were not absolute.

    The most absolute laws I can think of are the ten commandments. Think of how much murder and mayhem have come after these commandments were written in stone.

    You don't really think that otherwise good and honest people would suddenly become rapists, thieves, and murderers if they began following their conscience instead of a bunch of silly laws created by (in the case of the US) overpaid, out-of-touch, generally corrupt lawmakers?
     
  17. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    Well, just incase rules don't make one decent, a stun gun will give them a conscience with a jolt. :D
     
  18. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    NOT going to religion or politics...NOT here!
    But, the whole story makes me think of some guy in a three piece in a corporate office somewhere thinking "Gee..I have a good, money making idea.".
    I'd wager money that if we were to see the stats on those "employee's" they'd all be in their early 20's, just starting out and relatively unfamiliar with the concept of marketing/advertizing vs return.
    American capitalism has always walked the fine line between right and wrong. (PT Barnum's "there's a sucker born every minute" ).
    Your examples are exreme, but valid...if corporate america were left unchecked, we'd all be slave labor.
    In the simple matter of ethical vs unethical and whats right and wrong...let's look at Bill Gates and what our government decided regarding his monopolization. (I think he's responsible for my having to decipher what the foreign guy is trying to tell me when I call customer service for help with my new hard drive.)
    As far as the IRS standards for employment VS self employment, I am almost certain he's not qualified as an employee, not by the guidelines I recently had my cpa quote me regarding an inquiry on taking on "temporary" help.
    This fella, using his own tools for example, regular plumbing shops provide all power tools aside from hand tools, and pay for the co truck, gas & mileage.
    The fella Cass refers to made an ill informed decision to work for that company, yes. (in my opinion)
    The guy at the corporate office made an ill informed decision to have the fella sign a contract that didn't include doing his own work.
    Is it unethical, sure.
    But then, so was slavery.
     
  19. Pewterpower

    Pewterpower New Member

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    sales
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    Tampa
    Don't confuse unethical with illegal.
    Some people think an abortion is unethical, but yet it is perfectly legal.
    I think the plumber in this exercise was unethical. He was sent there by the company he worked for, and then tried to actively sell his own services.
    On the other hand, if his neighbor/friend/relative called and said, "Hey, bro, can ya help me this weekend with a water heater?" I think he would be perfectly justified in taking that job.
     
  20. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    Confusing topic, but can't argue that point.
     
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