Ethics Question

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by Cass, Jun 29, 2007.

  1. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Location:
    Ohio
    I think friends should pay me more than a regular plumber...............after all.............arent they my friends.

    Hows that for flip flopping the whole idea of a discount for friends.
     
  2. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2007
    Occupation:
    Plumber, self employed
    Location:
    Licensed Grump

    Um yeah...thats all nice...but You PROMISED the results last night!!!
    We wanna know!!!!!
     
  3. Pewterpower

    Pewterpower New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Occupation:
    sales
    Location:
    Tampa
    Maybe Cass was out late last night installing this lady's water heater. :D
     
  4. Alectrician

    Alectrician DIY Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Moonlighting is one thing but the original question went beyond that.

    That was the COMPANY'S customer and the employee stole it.

    I have always encouraged moonlighting as long they don't :


    1. Use my tools.

    2. Use my materials.

    3. Take my customers.

    Because:

    A. I want them to know what a pain in the ass it can be.

    B. I want them to be able to make some extra cash.
     
  5. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2007
    Occupation:
    Plumber, self employed
    Location:
    Licensed Grump
    subject "A" is the BIG one!
    All things told...I can respect that.
     
  6. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    Occupation:
    disabled-retired industrial fabricator
    Location:
    200 miles south of Little Rock
    Not so. He not only completed the work the customer had ordered from the company, he also offered to do more work for her for the company. It was only after she declined the company's lowest price that he then said he could do the work for her on his own ... and using his own tools, etc.

    ... and that would be a matter of equity:

    ... or, and if I might suggest so, something like "equal opportunity" ... as in "life, liberty and the ownership of property."

    Back in the 1950s, my father was a production worker in a mobile-home-only factory when he began moonlighting(?) in his own garage, making travel trailers and pickup campers.

    Ten successful years later, my father fired his own plant superintendant after he (my dad) quite unexpectedly saw the man showing a pickup camper from his own garage to one of my dad's dealers after work one day.

    If the man had been making mobile homes, I am sure my dad would have said nothing.
     
  7. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2007
    Occupation:
    Plumber, self employed
    Location:
    Licensed Grump
    Thats it, right there, in a nutshell.
    The line wasn't crossed when Cass's example bid the job at the company's price and she turned it down.
    She was no longer their client, she still needed a water heater and he no longer had the option to do it for that company under their pricing terms.
    He was left with the option of walking away having taken HIS time to estimate and negotiate, fully knowing that another local guy would be back to do it at a lower price after he'd invested his personal time for free.
    (I'll say again, the title "employee" really can't be right in this example)
     
  8. Cookie

    Cookie .

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Location:
    Home
    I still think the employee should go for it. His company couldn't fill the bill for the client. Why let it go to maybe their competitors? There has been times I picked up assignments on the side when covering something. I got kids to feed. (Unless, Grumpy ups the entertainment fee I need to continue moonlighting).
     
  9. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2007
    Occupation:
    Plumber, self employed
    Location:
    Licensed Grump

    I'm onto your diabolical plot to make me "ungrumpy".
     
  10. kordts

    kordts In the Trades

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2005
    Occupation:
    industrial service plumbing foreman
    Location:
    exurban Chicago
    Well,
    back in the day, cowboys used to talk about "riding for the brand." You took the pay, room and board, and gave your loyalty in return. I don't think this guy is riding for the brand. If he doesn't like his set-up, quit.
     
  11. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2007
    Occupation:
    Plumber, self employed
    Location:
    Licensed Grump

    They came out with labor laws after that period.
    40 hr week, time and a half for overtime, health insurance...that kinda thing.
    The company gives him none of that,
    For an 18th century single cowboy....good.
    By contemporary standards for a family man...not good.
     
  12. kordts

    kordts In the Trades

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2005
    Occupation:
    industrial service plumbing foreman
    Location:
    exurban Chicago
    Grumpy are you an owner? I think you are, I am and I think siders are wrong, and I am in the unusual postion of agreeing with my state law in this situation.
     
  13. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2007
    Occupation:
    Plumber, self employed
    Location:
    Licensed Grump

    Therein lies the difference...I could be corrected, but in some states the "license" you work under is the master that owns the company.
    You aren't "licensed" unless you're working under him. (again...correct me if wrong)
    Here, you do your time & school, pass the test and you are licensed.
    What Joe does at 5pm is NONE of my business, unless Joe is the reason Bob the builder hasn't been returning my calls, then Joe gets to meet Herbie, my lawyer who is kind enough to work out a nice, civil court ordered payment arrangement for damages and Herbies fee's. (Harry the inspector is perfectly happy to forward permit records on subpoena...assuming Joe wouldn't risk his livelyhood doing illegal work)
    If Joe's doing his own work, I applaud him.
    If Joe's sleeping on the job, he's fired.
    If I like Joe and want him to stick around and be happy...I go into my voicemails and give him the faucets and toilets I know I don't have time for, then Joe can't say a bad thing about working for me and he tells his friend Bill to apply for a job with us.
     
  14. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Occupation:
    Sensitivity trainer.. and plumber of mens souls
    Location:
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
    Employees....you can never please them anyway


    if that is really the case, I suggest this fellowgo out and get an education and do someting else....

    or go out and start hos own business
    and stop leeching off the owner of the company and see
    what it feels like on the bosses side of the tracks.



    I know from personal experience, you cant make employees happy... so I dont try to anymore....

    decent health benefits....nope..dont work

    a truck to drive home ...nope dont work

    they condiser overtime an insult....dont want it

    and a 401 k is mandatory......


    and they still feel you owe them ....
    that they are giveing you
    a break showing up for $20 per hour....



    I thought of maybe pickin g them
    up in the morning with a Limo.....


    but you got to draw the line somewhere..



    honestly , for my next go-around with employees

    I will hire a Mexican...
    I dont think that they feel entitled to everything
    just handed to them.....not yet anyway
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2007
  15. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Occupation:
    Plumber
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Six pack of beer, $7.49
    Pizza that I bake at home, $12.99

    At home with my family, Priceless.
     
  16. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Occupation:
    Sensitivity trainer.. and plumber of mens souls
    Location:
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
    Terry---- /beer for bathrooms

    Believe it or not I actually had a guy call me
    and claim that he was going to have a demo party
    on his bathroom and needed me to supervise the
    event......for beer and pizza

    then he mentioned that most of the fellows comming
    could only stay for an hour or two,,,due to other prior committments.....

    so guess which dummie he expected to do this bathroom...??????


    I never showed up....and never heard from him again..

    Getting rid of that leech......I think that was priceless too...
     
  17. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Occupation:
    Service Plumber, Outdoor Temperature Relief Owner
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati Area
    That happened to me with a guy who was building his garage. He asked if I could "give him some pointers" with the layout of the footers which had stepdowns every 4 foot to make up for the steep hill.

    Turned out he was over his head big time, overcut the ground big time and when they poured the footers they never put keyways in without rebar uprights.

    And apparently it was my fault because they didn't know this because I wasn't there every day......?

    Then they come in to set the panels.....they set the step downs at a loose dimension and you can only imagine how difficult that was to contend with when the symmons forms went up.

    The guy got busted 3 days later by the police enforcement for theft by unlawful taking. All of us freaked out and left; he ended up taking the panels down before pouring the walls and covering it all up.

    Never again.
     
  18. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    Occupation:
    disabled-retired industrial fabricator
    Location:
    200 miles south of Little Rock
    Personally, I think that is best ... just like the UPS guy/gal does not have the time to also deliver mail even though the USPS carrier also delivers packages.

    And, neither is the company providing horse, saddle, blanket, beans, coffee nor rope.

    We do not know he does not, and neither do we know the company does not want him doing his own work after he has completed theirs.

    I used to be a commissioned (W-2) cab driver, and it was clearly understood I could only run calls that came through the company's dispatcher. The company supplied everything, and I went only wherever I was sent.

    On the other hand, a lease (1099) driver for the same company paid a fee to use the car and bought his or her own gas while having the option of never asking the dispatcher for a call as long as s/he did not run any "on the side" that would have otherwise come through the dispatcher and been available to the rest of us also. That arrangement hurt the company when there were too few regular drivers to handle all the calls, but the company still got its lease money even when it had no calls to offer.

    Cass: What had the company been expecting as to side jobs?
     
  19. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Occupation:
    Service Plumber, Outdoor Temperature Relief Owner
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati Area
    Nobody, nobody has mentioned the most certain point of his intent,



    supplemental income. It's a nice addition to your paycheck and someone is going to make money off that replacement, period. All the customer wants is that it's done right and done cheap; that's what they all want.


    Did the question of this thread ever get answered?
     
  20. Pewterpower

    Pewterpower New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Occupation:
    sales
    Location:
    Tampa
    There are only 3 answers to this question:

    1. YES

    2. NO

    3. MAYBE

    ...they are all correct and open to interpretation by the person trying to answer.

    I guess the bottom line here is that you need to have it spelled out specifically in the form of a written contract/agreement as to what you can/cannot do. That would be the only way to eliminate the gray area that we are all trying to speculate answers on. But even that would be a daunting task. I'm sure someone has such a contract somewhere....
     
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