CSV on Irrigation Well

[Plainview]

I have a 110' deep irrigation well with the pump set at approximately 100'. Records don't show where it's at, but the company that installed it thought it was around there. The static water level is 12' per the original well log. The well originally tested at 35gpm when originally drilled. The pump is 1.5hp. I don't know what flow rate it is. The pump company thought the pump is probably on PVC.

The pump cycles very often when doing things such as filling my pool, watering tomatoes... I'm pretty sure I need to install a Cycle Stop Valve. I currently have an approximately 40 gallon hydropneumatic pressure tank. I don't see any need to replace it.

One strange thing is that there is a 25gpm flow limiter upstream of the above ground check valve. The pump guy didn't know why it was there.

I'd plan on installing the CSV after the check valve but before the pressure tank right? Everything after the flow limiter is on pretty big pipe. I think it's 3" pipe.

I may run the irrigation out into a field, so I can probably have as much as 500' of irrigation line after the pump.

So, a couple of questions:

1) Will adding a CSV cause damaging pressures to the PVC pipe? I think I have a fairly high horsepower pump for the head I have.

2) What will that upstream pressure be?

3) Will the flow limiter cause any strangeness with the CSV? I think it would be similar to two CSV's in series which would limit differential pressures right? (maybe I'm thinking of that totally wrong).

4) Which model CSV should I use? I can see using up to the 25 gpm limit of the flow limiter if I hook up a small water reel sprinkler.

5) Someday when I replace the pump should I look at another 1.5hp motor or something smaller?

6) Anything else to think about?

 

[Boycedrilling]

Valveman will give you the best answers on this. But yes, the CSV will keep the pump from cycling. The 1" valve is good for up to 25 gpm. The 1 1/4" valves are good for up to 50 gpm. The plastic valve is preset and non adjustable. It is way less expensive than either size adjustable valve.

 

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[Valveman]

The backpressure from the CSV depends on the flow rate of the 1.5 HP pump. But I cannot imagine anything smaller than a 25 GPM pump, since you have a 25 gpm flow limiter. And a 25 GPM, 1.5HP pump will have 112 PSI backpressure on the pipe, which won't hurt anything. And the flow limiter will not change the differential pressure unless you are trying to use more than 25 GPM, then it restricts the pressure.

If you have a 40/60 pressure switch, the CSV12550-1 would be a good choice.

 

[Plainview]

Thanks valveman. I was hoping to hear from you.

Yes, I have a 40/60 pressure switch. I assume the CSV1A would also be a good choice?

I also see that the CSV1A has a 1/2" and a 3/4" manifold port. Can I mount my pressure gauge and pressure switch to those ports? I'll need to re-locate both those since they're currently mounted to my check valve.

Also, per the CSV1A datasheet there is an approximately 14psi pressure drop off at 25GPM. Would I want to set the CSV at closer to 60psi? That would give me 50psi at roughly 18GPM right? The pump guy adjusted my pressure switch to 35/65 to get me some fewer cycles with my current setup.

 

[Valveman]

Thanks valveman. I was hoping to hear from you.

Yes, I have a 40/60 pressure switch. I assume the CSV1A would also be a good choice?

I also see that the CSV1A has a 1/2" and a 3/4" manifold port. Can I mount my pressure gauge and pressure switch to those ports? I'll need to re-locate both those since they're currently mounted to my check valve.

Also, per the CSV1A datasheet there is an approximately 14psi pressure drop off at 25GPM. Would I want to set the CSV at closer to 60psi? That would give me 50psi at roughly 18GPM right? The pump guy adjusted my pressure switch to 35/65 to get me some fewer cycles with my current setup.

Except for the extra pressure loss at 25 GPM the CSV1A would work fine. And yes we use one of the 1/2" ports to install the pressure switches when there is a little tank screwed into the 3/4" port. But without a tank screwed into the 3/4 port, the pressure switch would be too far away from the tank. The pressure switch should always be very close to the pressure tank. But you can screw a 2.2 or a 4.5 gallon size tank in the 3/4 port, a pressure switch into a 1/2" port, and your main tank can be down the line as far away as needed.

 

[Plainview]

How far is too far? My pressure switch would be about 2' away from the pressure tank.

It's currently about 2' away from the pressure tank.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Valveman]

That will probably work fine, but I prefer the switch to be about 6" from the tank. The bigger the pump the more important that is.

 

[Plainview]

Great thanks.

Just for my education, is that an issue of lag, or something different?

 

[Valveman]

More of a bounce issue. If the pressure switch bounces on/off at pump start or stop, it is too far from the tank.

 

[Plainview]

I installed a CSV1A yesterday and it works wonderfully. It's pretty much like magic.

My pump used to run for maybe 10 seconds to fill up the pressure tank. Now it hums along at 50psi without cycling. It runs for ~90 seconds (after I stop using water) to fill the pressure tank. Much better.

I left a pressure gauge upstream of the CSV as I was curious what the pressure would be. It has a huge amount of chatter but it doesn't appear to go above 100psi.

Thank you very much for the help and advice. The next project will be to install the same thing at the house's shallow jet pump.

 

[TVL]

More of a bounce issue. If the pressure switch bounces on/off at pump start or stop, it is too far from the tank.

Valveman .............. hope nobody objects, but I would like to ask a question regarding the above statement:

My bladder tank, pressure switch and pressure gauge are located underneath the house about 100 feet from the well. When the pressure switch cuts the pump on or off the pressure gauge simply stops at the setting it is on at the time .............. 40/60 setup.

Now, I do have a second pressure gauge located at the Vu-Flow filter which is located very near the well OR about 100 feet upstream from the tank setup. When the pressure switch underneath the house cuts the pump on or off, this gauge will bounce back and forth about 3 or 4 PSI for a very brief period and then settle down. Is this because of the distance from the tank? Since the main gauge at the tank functions normally, I have not been too concerned about the second one.

Thanks!

 

[Valveman]

It could be just the distance from the tank. But if you have an additional check valve anywhere in the line, it could be the cause as well.

 

[Valveman]

I installed a CSV1A yesterday and it works wonderfully. It's pretty much like magic.

My pump used to run for maybe 10 seconds to fill up the pressure tank. Now it hums along at 50psi without cycling. It runs for ~90 seconds (after I stop using water) to fill the pressure tank. Much better.

I left a pressure gauge upstream of the CSV as I was curious what the pressure would be. It has a huge amount of chatter but it doesn't appear to go above 100psi.

Thank you very much for the help and advice. The next project will be to install the same thing at the house's shallow jet pump.

Thanks, but you got to be careful using words like "magic". People already accuse me of selling Snake Oil. I also believe it works like magic. But many people think if it sounds too good to be true, it isn't true. However, in the case of the CSV, and as you said, it does work exactly as advertised.

 

[PumpMd]

I installed a CSV1A yesterday and it works wonderfully. It's pretty much like magic.

My pump used to run for maybe 10 seconds to fill up the pressure tank. Now it hums along at 50psi without cycling. It runs for ~90 seconds (after I stop using water) to fill the pressure tank. Much better.

I left a pressure gauge upstream of the CSV as I was curious what the pressure would be. It has a huge amount of chatter but it doesn't appear to go above 100psi.

Thank you very much for the help and advice. The next project will be to install the same thing at the house's shallow jet pump.

How many years had you been running that system for on a 10sec runtime?

 

[Plainview]

Well, I bought the house in February. The pump has been in place since 1996. I don't know that much has changed since then. The pipes were sure super hard to break apart.

The control box failed last month (likely the starter solenoid). I'm a new well owner, so I have a lot to learn, but I'm also an engineer, which is helpful. Hopefully the cycling didn't take too many years off the pumps life, although it's already pretty old. It hums along just fine though.

The well guy who helped out with the control box said I really need to look at a VFD, but I know from work that they can be temperamental. The CSV seems to be the ideal solution. It's fairly simple in concept. It's magic in the sense that it's such a simple solution, especially compared to a VFD. The simple , straightforward solution is often the most robust, longest lasting. It's when you try and get fancy that things get screwed up.

One small quibble. I think the amount of work the pump does (in the technical sense) is the same with or without the CSV. The rate at which the work is done is lower, which taxes the pump less. At least that's how I've come to understand it. I'm sure a non-engineer doesn't think of "work" in the same way. You probably do save work on startup though which is probably less efficient than constant running. Certainly startup is the most damaging to the system.

Thanks for all the education.

 

[Reach4]

The control box failed last month (likely the starter solenoid). I'm a new well owner, so I have a lot to learn, but I'm also an engineer, which is helpful.

The start capacitor is a non-polarized electrolytic, which is two electrolytics in series. That is a common failure point.

 

[Valveman]

Well, I bought the house in February. The pump has been in place since 1996. I don't know that much has changed since then. The pipes were sure super hard to break apart.

The control box failed last month (likely the starter solenoid). I'm a new well owner, so I have a lot to learn, but I'm also an engineer, which is helpful. Hopefully the cycling didn't take too many years off the pumps life, although it's already pretty old. It hums along just fine though.

The well guy who helped out with the control box said I really need to look at a VFD, but I know from work that they can be temperamental. The CSV seems to be the ideal solution. It's fairly simple in concept. It's magic in the sense that it's such a simple solution, especially compared to a VFD. The simple , straightforward solution is often the most robust, longest lasting. It's when you try and get fancy that things get screwed up.

One small quibble. I think the amount of work the pump does (in the technical sense) is the same with or without the CSV. The rate at which the work is done is lower, which taxes the pump less. At least that's how I've come to understand it. I'm sure a non-engineer doesn't think of "work" in the same way. You probably do save work on startup though which is probably less efficient than constant running. Certainly startup is the most damaging to the system.

Thanks for all the education.

Thanks for the kind words Plainview! I would argue with your quibble, but only to quibble a little further. Actually if you figure the work as the number of gallons per KW, then anytime you slow a pump down with a VFD or restrict the flow with a CSV, you get fewer gallons per KW. The most efficient way to pump water is to use the pump at its best efficiency point, which is almost maximum flow. However, the benefits of being able to vary the flow rate outweigh the loss of efficiency in most cases.