Crimp vs. Uponor

[RobbyDog]

I am totally redoing a basement apartment and want to completely replace the 50 yr old copper supply piping. Sure, it may last another 50+ years but it will all be exposed now and eventually covered in sound insulation and two layers of 5/8" drywall which would be a PITA to redo in the event of a leak.

I already have the pex crimp tool but will invest in a pex pro expansion tool, to avoid the flow restrictions inherent with the crimp system. Are there any downsides to the expansion fitting (Uponor) system? Assuming everything is more expensive than crimp? The only real downside I can see is I won't be able to purchase extra fittings on a weekend or evening since they're not available at big box stores. But that can be avoided with careful planning. As for the tool, I'd prefer to go with something manual vs cordless since it won't be used often, and in 20 years I'm sure the cordless tool batteries will be obsolete. Any recommendations on a particular expansion tool?

The basement is 1200 sq ft with one bathroom and kitchen with dishwasher, as well as laundry. I'm thinking of doing a main trunk in 3/4" with 1/2" branches to each fixture.

 

[Reach4]

What color is the ink on your copper pipe? Unless it is red, or you know that your local water is hard on copper, I would not replace that.

Copper has anti-bacterial properties, which may matter if your water is not chlorinated.

Any recommendations on a particular expansion tool?

I have a manual expansion tool. It is much slower than the electric tools, and takes extra step of manually rotating between expansions. But less than US$200 in the US.

If there is an awkward place, or you need to do something on the weekend, you can also use the crimp/clamp fittings with the PEX-A.

Your assessment of the PEX looks good. Right now there is a shortage of red and blue AquaPEX PEX-A. You can use a colored sleeve over "clear".

 

[Sponsor]

 

[RobbyDog]

What color is the ink on your copper pipe? Unless it is red, or you know that your local water is hard on copper, I would not replace that.

Copper has anti-bacterial properties, which may matter if your water is not chlorinated.

Thanks, I expect the copper is red type M...I’m obviously not a plumber but that’s all I’ve ever seen in homes here in Ontario.

 

[JohnCT]

As for the tool, I'd prefer to go with something manual vs cordless since it won't be used often, and in 20 years I'm sure the cordless tool batteries will be obsolete. .

I would buy the powered tool. I used a manual expander once and it was a nightmare. You need three hands: two for the handles and one to keep the pex up against the head while pumping. The M12 battery (if you use Milwaukee) will probably be around for decades, but if not, I'm sure there will be companies that restuff them. Lithium batteries last at least 5X what a nicd will and 10X what a lead battery will. Worse case 25 years from now you can buy that manual tool for an emergency for $5 at a tag sale or FB marketplace.

John

 

[Jeff H Young]

I've seen guys buy the tool use it for a repipe keep it around a few months keep it clean . Sell it on Craig's List for 75 bucks less or even 100 .
I ran PEX for 6 months on a huge job all Uponer . Never used a crimp. As far as I can see around here crimps aren't done by pros except by guys that do so little they don't want to invest

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Manual expanders work fine for 1/2 and 3/4" but 1" hurts my elbows. They can be a tad cumbersome til you get used to it.

I got a auto rotating attachment for mine!

 

[Jeff H Young]

Any of you guys repipe homes with crimp? or use a hand expander exclusively that are plumbers active in trade?
I am semi active and still do copper mainly repair work last few years . eventually I'll get a battery powered expander seems everything else either slow, difficult uncomfortable physically or crimping seems to be not as good

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

We crimped the gray PolyB stuff and I believe we crimped the Manibloc systems. But as soon as our product rep for Uponor gave us the tool and some material to try out on a couple projects I was sold. I used my hand expander until about 5 or 6 yrs ago and bought the M12 expander. Til someone borrowed it and never brought it back.. But I work mostly in the office now, so I don't need to buy that tool again. But if I were to do a side job for anyone, I would buy the M12 tool again in a heartbeat. The new ones are even faster from what I hear.

 

[Terry]

I've never had problems with this one. It was so much nicer than the hand expander. The kit comes with two batteries and a charger.

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/products/power-tools/2532-20

 

[WorthFlorida]

I am totally redoing a basement apartment and want to completely replace the 50 yr old copper supply piping. Sure, it may last another 50+ years but it will all be exposed now and eventually covered in sound insulation and two layers of 5/8" drywall which would be a PITA to redo in the event of leak.................

As with any pipe system, the less joints the better. Since you are starting from scratch try to lay out the PEX using 90 degree bend support brackets where possible. There are many variations of it from different manufactures. This is just an example. You need to make a 90 degree turn for both hot and cold, that is four connections. A support bracket makes it without any connection.

I'm in agreement with Reach4, copper is the best. I would keep the copper but change all of the valves as where they'll may weep as the packing material degrades and the valves will weep. PEX does have one advantage is it can take a freeze better. Copper will split where as PEX will expand but no guarantees that it won't. Fittings made of hard plastic or brass will split before the PEX pipe does.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Apollo-...port-with-Mounting-Bracket-PXBEND12/301541126

 

[RobbyDog]

Appreciate all the advice from everyone. My plumber will be doing all my drain work since I don’t really trust myself to do it correctly (sure I’m capable but would take me forever). I’ll ask him if he recommends replacing the type M copper (I’m on city water). He’s in his 60s...been around a while so I’m sure he’s got a good idea how long this copper should last.

 

[Jeff H Young]

It wasn't a discussion of PEX vs copper . Topic is crimp vs Uponer , I really only see hobbyist or DIY use crimp it seems I've almost never had input of a professional using crimp I've only done expander but don't own one or do PEX on any regular basis

 

[Jadnashua]

Uphonor was the first company to make PEX. Type -A is the most flexible (tightest turning radius), and the only type that can recover if you get it kinked without needing to cut that kink out and use a fitting to restore it. The other major reason to use type -A and expansion fittings is that they have less restriction in them as their ID is larger than crimp ones. That can be somewhat overcome if you're careful about layout and minimize connections, but it still does make a difference. It's still not as free flowing as copper, but with copper, every fitting, especially changes of direction, affect the flow. With a well-designed pex install, you may only need one fitting at the beginning of the run, and another onto the valve or other device at the other end. FWIW, it takes more of an open mind to live with a good pex layout, as the pex, with the naturally flexible tubing, doesn't look as neat as a well-done copper install. And, if you try to make your pex look neat with tight angles by using fittings, you'll negate most of the benefits and impact the flow. In most cases, the tubing gets covered over in a wall, so my thought is 'who cares?', and in exposed areas, you'll need to probably use more clamps to keep it from sagging. Caution in exposed areas, though, the pex isn't as robust to scratching or gouging as copper, and you MUST protect it from UV exposure that copper doesn't care about. As mentioned, while pex normally won't be adversely affected if it freezes, that does NOT apply to any fittings. But, because the tubing will expand if frozen, that might keep the fittings from cracking, depending on how hard of a freeze it is and where they're located.

 

[Breplum]

In case anybody missed my alert post, these are pictures of two different Uponor pipe leaks from a house in Orinda, CA that was built new in about 2011.
Uponor is paying for the damages and have given us no indication of what the defects were caused by, but this is scary folks.
I am a certified Uponor installer and have the same tool as Terry shows, and love it, but I am truly shocked to see these defects.
Hot water supply lines.

 

[JohnCT]

In case anybody missed my alert post, these are pictures of two different Uponor pipe leaks from a house in Orinda, CA that was built new in about 2011.
Uponor is paying for the damages and have given us no indication of what the defects were caused by, but this is scary folks.
I am a certified Uponor installer and have the same tool as Terry shows, and love it, but I am truly shocked to see these defects.
Hot water supply lines.

I'm surprise no one commented on that post (other than me).

I thought the colored PEX was a tinting of the actual material, but this seems to be additive by the way the red color seemed to flake off.

Also, the expansion ring in one photo looks to be amber color, not white. Is this a normal color change on the hot water pipes, or could this pipe be exposed to secondary UV light?

Is it possible these hot water pipes are fed from a hot water coil off the boiler with no tempering valve?

John

 

[Reach4]

I thought the colored PEX was a tinting of the actual material, but this seems to be additive by the way the red color seemed to flake off.

I suspect that is why availability of the red and blue Aquapex seems to have gone way down and they are selling colored sleeves and "white" with blue or red "print".

"White" (translucent) does not look so good when carrying iron-bearing water for a few years.

 

[ncgeo]

I read that PEX-A can sometimes impart a chemical taste to water, likely related to the softer inside material.

 

[Jadnashua]

I read that PEX-A can sometimes impart a chemical taste to water, likely related to the softer inside material.

PEX-A isn't 'softer'...it is more flexible. During the manufacturing process, the differences in types is related to how much cr0ss-linking there is to the long-chain molecules...PEX-A, cross-links a much higher proportion that -B, and -B more than -C. The amount of cross-linking is the reason why it retains enough memory to allow expansion fittings...with the other types, if you tried to stretch it enough to use an expansion fitting, the memory isn't as high, and you wouldn't get the tubing to collapse as much to make the seal. The major advantage other than the tighter bend radius (and thus, the ability to avoid fittings for many changes of direction) is tha tusing an expansion fitting means a larger ID, and thus flow capacity with less pressure drop. You don't need a go-nogo gauge to check your crimps, either. The high cross-linking and thus memory, is also the reason that you can heat the pipe if you kink it which will let it recover without having to cut it out and insert a fitting.

 

[bow]

Hey breplum,

Any update on this. I am struggling with the same thing as my house. I competely remodeled it in 2014 and put in a bunch of PEX. The hot (red) water line has been getting cracks by all the fittings. I JUST repaired one last night -- I am up to 8 repairs now! Happening right at the fitting.

Totally seems like a defect with the pipe -- just curious if you got any insight on this problem?

 

[Jeff H Young]

Looks like same problem , Breplum probably busy with holiday , maybe try private message if you don't hear. but share back info bow or breplum very interesting for us in piping trades