Closet flange questions

[pfun100]

I'm working on an upstairs toilet in an old house that originally had a lead closet bend. A plumber replaced the lead bend with a 4" cast iron pipe, cutting the vertical part shorter because there was tight clearance below the floor to a notch in a joist. They installed an outside clamping cast iron flange. First try after placing the toilet it leaked like a sieve, so they piled on a second wax ring, and then said it was done.

I'm now trying to fix this properly. Removing the toilet, I found that the top of the flange is a bit below the tile surface and not flat.

I plan to build up the floor/tile so that the flange can rest on top of the tile. I'm trying to decide which closet flange to use:

1) The outside clamping gasket arrangement bothers me, as any water/sewage that lands outside the pipe will want to flow downwards and might seep past the gasket. It seems more natural to have the flange empty inside the closet bend. I imagine that the outside clamping must actually work or they wouldn't be used, but would it in fact be "better" to have the flange empty inside the pipe?

2) The inside clamping designs that look possible are the Oatey 43539, the Oatey Twist-N-Set, and the Sioux Chief PushTite. The Oatey 43539 has hex bolts to tighten the gasket, which seems like it might provide a tighter seal, but they also are spots for stuff to hang up on, maybe making for clogs. Anyone have opinions on these three?

3) Because the bend was cut short, the curve cuts into the vertical line not that far down from the top opening. So the inside gasket style flanges may not be able to be placed far enough down--it might hit the bend. Anyone know of an inside style flange that has a short outlet? Alternatively, I was thinking that I might take one of the ones I mentioned in #2, cut a section out of the middle and glue it back together to make a short one. Does that seem reasonable?

4) An additional problem with one flange that I tried is that it would not fit into the pipe. Although the pipe is I think 4" lower down, near the top the wall is maybe 3/32" thicker, causing a narrower inside diameter, too narrow for the flange. Was this not the correct kind of pipe (closet bend) that they used?

5) If I stick with the outside clamping style, I'm thinking it may be difficult to keep the top of the flange flat to the floor, as the clamp wants to follow the angle of the pipe, which is not vertical where it clamps on, due to it being cut short. Any ideas on this?

Sorry for the long and picky list of questions, but I'm interested in the fine points, as viewed by people with experience!

 

[Reach4]

You can use a compound with the seal if there is a small leak at your rubber seal. This could be thick silicone grease or pipe dope, or even wax.

For an inside flange like the PushTite, measure the ID to see if the size is close to 4.0 inches.

If the current flange is not leaking, another thing to consider is the DANCO HydroSeat Toilet Flange Repair. http://www.danco.com/product/hydroseat-flange-repair/ That would raise things up.

 

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[pfun100]

Do you have any opinions about the Twist-N-Set and the PushTite? Do you consider them "quality" long-term solutions? Or do you think that the original outside clamping style is more robust? And is my concern about seepage past the gasket on the outside clamping style of any merit, or is that really never an issue?

 

[Reach4]

I am not a plumber. I think the Pushtite is good where the inside fits. I would prefer one with a stainless steel ring.

That outside compression cast iron should be very good too. Is your only concern is that it does not sit higher?

They both have the advantage that if you ever wanted to replace them, you can.

I have not seen the Twist-N-Set.

 

[pfun100]

My concern with the outside clamping style is that if water/waste is sitting in the space between the cast iron and the pipe exterior (sitting above the gasket) that gravity wants to make it seep down past the gasket--and then into the floor/ceiling space. With the inside discharge style, anything that might start to get by the gasket will want to seep back into the waste pipe. I suppose since the outside type is used a lot it must not be an actual problem. But are there any experienced plumbers reading this that could weight in on the various styles?

 

[CountryBumkin]

The Sani-Seal would work nicely with that closet flange be just a little below flush. http://saniseal.com/

 

[JohnjH2o1]

There is nothing wrong with using two wax seals. If it's not broken then don't fix it.

 

[MKS]

jadnashua sums things up nicely. From a recent post.
The magic key to keeping the seal on a toilet is first, having the toilet flange where it was designed to be (on top of the finished floor although there are millions that work reliably that are not!), and second, ensuring that the toilet is shimmed so that it cannot rock. That second point is probably where you've failed. A proper install should last a lifetime.

The missing link is to first set the toilet in place without wax, see if it rocks...add shims so that it is rock solid, then lift, place the wax, then push the toilet down until it is seated. Do not use the bolts to pull the toilet down, use your weight. If the toilet can rock, the wax is not resilient, and you will break the seal when it rocks back after being compressed. In this manner, some of the waxless seals might compensate for movement, but it would depend on how much it moved in the process.

If the toilet often clogs, and the toilet flange is recessed beneath the top of the floor, aggressive plunging can blow out the wax seal. That's not normally possible if the flange is where it is designed to be. TO overcome that, Terry suggests using one wax ring with a plastic horn on top, and a regular wax ring beneath...the horn helps to reinforce things while keeping the wax in place and not squishing into the path of the outlet.