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SadGarbageWater

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I apologize for the lengthy post. Any help is appreciated! I moved to Middle TN from North FL about 7 months ago and have been fighting the water the entire time!! I have never experienced anything like this, I have overpaid for a few different tanks, and we are still MISERABLE with the water quality! The biggest issues being our skin and hair. My hair can't get a lather and it feels like WAX and frizz no matter what I try (no poo, low poo, specially formulated shampoo, ACV rinse, etc.). I am desperate for help, answers, a real specialist and not just a "salesman"... Full disclosure, I've always had water softeners (and well water), and never any problems! I was told that I'm just "not used to the feel of the water" which may be true, but we shouldn't be having these issues.

2 people in household, 2.5 bathrooms. Sometimes family will come for a few days to visit, but never longer than that.

Here is a link to our water report/s (we are on the line and I can't get verification from municipality - but these are similar): Shelbyville and Flat Creek - both have incredibly very high chlorine levels and I *think* this may be the source of our initial issues.

A recap: we bought a system from Westinghouse (LeverEdge) in July and feel that it has never worked correctly. The first month, the brine draw didn't work. That has since been corrected. It's the "Progressive Revolution". We have the 10x44 and were told it has the 1 cu ft of resin, 1/2 cu ft of coconut carbon, and 5 lbs of KDF55. The selling point here was that this would reduce chlorine and soften the water. The demo put on by dealer said hardness was 10 or 11. He never asked to see water report and since we are not familiar with municipal water and new to the area, we trusted him. We have since sent water to test where they said it was 5GPG. I changed the settings to reflect this number. It is pre-fill and upflow - I have since learned from this forum that this is not as great as the salesman preached. We paid a small fortune for this and are stuck, so I'm hoping there's something, anything, we can do to make it work! Settings, anything!

I was able to reach out to someone on this forum and they suggested we get a 1.5 ft3 catalytic carbon auto backwashing system for the chlorine. We purchased this one through the Water eStore: HUM Catalytic Carbon - we were able to hook this up ourselves and FINALLY got the chlorine smell out of our home.

Why are we still having issues with our skin & hair? No lather, water spots on dishes, dry skin, itchy scalp and dandruff (which we have never had!), shower door spots, etc.? Sometimes we feel really dry/chalky and other times really waxy. Is there residual salt? We have had water softeners for over 10 years and this is bizarre... is something else wrong? Do we need a second carbon tank? Extend rinse times? Could the KDF be an issue for our skin? Do we need to change the water flow level from the meter to the home (is it coming out too fast?), pH level problems? Willing to try anything but need guidance.

To recap: We now have an auto backwashing 1.5 ft3 catalytic carbon tank, a 10x44 softener with 1 ft3 resin .5 ft3 coconut carbon, and 5lbs KDF55, and an RO for POU at kitchen sink.

I've changed the softener settings a few times based on results I've found here and this is what I landed on.
The brine soak period is 4 hours, these are the only other things I changed.
Hardness - 5
Regen day - 14
Total salt - 9
Capacity - 24k
Backwash - 8 min
Rinse 6 min

I even bought a shower head that is supposed to add some vitamins/minerals BACK to the water, just in case that was the issue... nothing is helping. Please send thoughts on what to try. I feel like I'm maybe missing something and on the verge of a mental breakdown!
 
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Reach4

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The demo put on by dealer said hardness was 10 or 11.
Get a Hach 5-B hardness test kit. Measure the incoming water hardness and measure the hardness of the treated water.

I have no thoughts to express regarding the KDF or carbon. I don't know if your media is mixed in, or if there is a special container for the KDF. There are low-range chlorine tests, but I suspect your main symptoms are from hardness.
I even bought a shower head that is supposed to add some vitamins/minerals BACK to the water, just in case that was the issue... nothing is helping.
That is not going to help.
 

SadGarbageWater

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Thanks for your reply! I have some strips but I suspect they are not accurate. Is it typical for 5GPG to cause those issues? I understood that to be relatively low hardness, but I could be mistaken. Even when the water is reading "soft" we are having issues with our hair. Is this because the source water has little to no minerals and our well water had TONS? Do the other settings look okay (this is supposed to regen tonight so I did bump it up to 8 - this always regens before meter runs out so maybe this will compensate for any other hardness)?

I will order the Hach 5b -Thank you for that suggestion.
As for the carbon & KDF in the tank, it looks like there's a plate on the bottom and then another plate separating the media. There were all sorts of claims by the dealer about how amazing the system is, but we have not had great results.

Are you able to view the link? If not, I can try to save it as a PDF and then upload it. Also, if we are missing anything and need extra filtering, I'm happy to install other systems.

https://westinghousewatertreatment.com/progressive/inside-rev
 
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Bannerman

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Although mixing media within the same tank is usually not recommended, in viewing the Westinghouse PR website, at least it seems they utilize Enpress tanks equipped with the Vortech bottom screen, and a Mid-Vortech screen to keep the the carbon media separated from the softening resin.
Enpress Vortech

Unfortunately, the KDF media is shown within the same compartment as the Carbon media. Because KDF media is extremely heavy, the KDF will settle below the carbon media, exactly opposite to where it will be most effective.

Due to the weight of KDF media, the backwash flow rate required is 25-30 GPM per square foot (ft2) of cross section, so KDF located within a 10" diameter tank (0.54 ft2), would require a Backwash flow rate of between 14-16 gallons per minute. When the backwash flow rate is insufficient, the KDF media will not become lifted and reclassified during backwash, and so the KDF will become ineffective as it will eventually form a solid mass which the water will flow around instead of passing through so as to come into contact with the individual KDF granules. Because that high backwash rate would cause the carbon media to become excessively lifted so as to be backwashed out to drain, I anticipate your unit's drain flow rate (same as Backwash flow rate), will be substantially less than 14 GPM.

When KDF is utilized, the usual recommended method will be to place the KDF media within a 'Media Guard', which is a 2.5" diameter, 4-6 chamber mini tank that is fitted into and suspended within the larger media tank opening, directly below the control valve. The smaller Media Guard cross section, will require a significantly lower backwash flow rate to effectively backwash the KDF media. With the Media Guard suspended in the tank's opening, Service flow entering the tank will come into extended contact with the KDF media before passing through to the carbon media and/or softening resin below.

Although a KDF Media Guard is recommended to be backwashed at 4-4.5 GPM. the location of the Media Guard will prevent the lighter media below, from becoming backwashed out to drain.

Water treatment will not typically be fully effective unless the water has sufficient contact time with the media. To achieve sufficient contact time with each media requires the appropriate quantity of media, conditional on the diameter of the tank and expected service flow rate. For example, 1 ft3 of softening resin will typically be placed in a 9" X 48" tank, resulting in the media depth being approx 32", whereas 1 ft3 within a 10" diameter tank, will result in the resin depth being only ~24", so the water will have reduced contact with the resin, and increased hardness leakage through the resin bed will be a common result.

The limited depth of only 0.5 ft3 of carbon across a 10" tank, will provide limited contact time to remove contaminants. Although sodium hypochlorite is typically rapidly removed after only brief contact with carbon, the water report(s) specify, chlorine dioxide is utilized for disinfection, followed by the injection of polyaluminum chloride to coagulate particulates. Although those chemicals are supposedly precipitated or are filtered out before entering the distribution system, the report states an un-specified amount of un-specified residual disinfectant is added as the water enters the distribution system. As many municipal water supplies have adopted Chloramine (chlorine and ammonia) for increased residual strength and lifespan throughout large distribution systems, it is possible that chloramine is utilized as the final disinfectant.

31627BEaTmL.jpg
 
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SadGarbageWater

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Although mixing media within the same tank is usually not recommended, in viewing the Westinghouse PR website, at least it seems they utilize Enpress tanks equipped with the Vortech bottom screen, and a Mid-Vortech screen to keep the the carbon media separated from the softening resin.
Enpress Vortech

Unfortunately, the KDF media is shown within the same compartment as the Carbon media. Because KDF media is extremely heavy, the KDF will settle below the carbon media, exactly opposite to where it will be most effective.

Due to the weight of KDF media, the backwash flow rate required is 25-30 GPM per square foot (ft2) of cross section, so KDF located within a 10" diameter tank (0.54 ft2), would require a Backwash flow rate of between 14-16 gallons per minute. When the backwash flow rate is insufficient, the KDF media will not become lifted and reclassified during backwash, and so the KDF will become ineffective as it will eventually form a solid mass which the water will flow around instead of passing through so as to come into contact with the individual KDF granules. Because that high backwash rate would cause the carbon media to become excessively lifted so as to be backwashed out to drain, I anticipate your unit's drain flow rate (same as Backwash flow rate), will be substantially less than 14 GPM.

When KDF is utilized, the usual recommended method will be to place the KDF media within a 'Media Guard', which is a 2.5" diameter, 4-6 chamber mini tank that is fitted into and suspended within the larger media tank opening, directly below the control valve. The smaller Media Guard cross section, will require a significantly lower backwash flow rate to effectively backwash the KDF media. With the Media Guard suspended in the tank's opening, Service flow entering the tank will come into extended contact with the KDF media before passing through to the carbon media and/or softening resin below.

Although a KDF Media Guard is recommended to be backwashed at 4-4.5 GPM. the location of the Media Guard will prevent the lighter media below, from becoming backwashed out to drain.

Water treatment will not typically be fully effective unless the water has sufficient contact time with the media. To achieve sufficient contact time with each media requires the appropriate quantity of media, conditional on the diameter of the tank and expected service flow rate. For example, 1 ft3 of softening resin will typically be placed in a 9" X 48" tank, resulting in the media depth being approx 32", whereas 1 ft3 within a 10" diameter tank, will result in the resin depth being only ~24", so the water will have reduced contact with the resin, and increased hardness leakage through the resin bed will be a common result.

The limited depth of only 0.5 ft3 of carbon across a 10" tank, will provide limited contact time to remove contaminants. Although sodium hypochlorite is typically rapidly removed after only brief contact with carbon, the water report(s) specify, chlorine dioxide is utilized for disinfection, followed by the injection of polyaluminum chloride to coagulate particulates. Although those chemicals are supposedly precipitated or are filtered out before entering the distribution system, the report states an un-specified amount of un-specified residual disinfectant is added as the water enters the distribution system. As many municipal water supplies have adopted Chloramine (chlorine and ammonia) for increased residual strength and lifespan throughout large distribution systems, it is possible that chloramine is utilized as the final disinfectant.

31627BEaTmL.jpg
Bannerman, I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to send this educational reply. I have learned so much from this forum and am grateful you took the time to send these details. This makes SO much sense! I wish I had known this before my move, but alas, we trust "professionals" to tell us straight. I will say, I don't think most dealers truly understand the water industry... they know the sales pitch of their product. When I bring up any of these questions, I am never met with an intelligent response and am dismissed immediately.

Here are a few follow-up replies that I hope you can help with:
1. You mentioned the additional disinfectant on my water report which may be chloramine - I have a 1.5 ft3 catalytic carbon auto backwashing tank installed prior to the softener. Is this enough to handle the disinfectant? If I need to add UV or another filter, I'm happy to do so. I am desperate for water that doesn't make me depressed.

2. With the current tank size and resin distribution, is there anything I can do to make this work? Regenerate more frequently, change to post-fill, use a higher amount of salt to regen? Or would it make sense for me to get rid of this and opt for a different configuration - perhaps a 1.5 ft3 softener only? This will result in several thousand dollars lost, so if there is a way to use the current tank, that would be ideal.

3. I think I now understand the issue with the KDF in the tank - does this need to be removed or will it cause any issues if it just stays there; knowing it is ineffective is not a problem (since we have the cat GAC) as long as there are no negative effects.

4. Could there potentially be any problems with the water heater? We did drain it to see if that would help, but we still have not taken a "normal" shower here.

I realize we are moving from a different area and from a well to municipal water, so there may be an adjustment period. However, I have visited cities with varying climates and water and never experienced these hair issues to this degree. I do know for a fact that it's the water because I go back to FL once a month for work and my skin and hair immediately change upon my first shower.

Thank you again for your detailed reply and for sharing your knowledge!
 

Bannerman

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If it were me, I would remove the KDF and carbon from the softener, and flush away the carbon to recover the KDF to install in a Media Guard, placed into the Catalytic Carbon tank opening.

The final disinfectant may not be chloramine, but could be the same chlorine as utilized initially. A benefit of KDF55 is the conversion of free chlorine into harmless chloride salt and to remove heavy metals from the inflow. Also, KDF55 will inhibit algae and fungi growth and to a lesser extent, the growth of bacteria and viruses. As such, KDF55 as the initial treatment media, should reduce the load on the 1.5 catalytic Carbon media, thereby potentially extending the carbon media's lifespan, and possibly increasing the carbon's effectiveness and flow rate.

I would install 0.5 ft3 additional resin in the upper chamber of the softener, thereby increasing the total amount of resin to 1.5 ft3. While 1.5ft3 media will usually utilize a 10" X 54" media tank to provide sufficient freeboard space above the media to provide room to lift, expand and reclassify the media without media loss, I suspect the mid-Vortech screen will limit the amount of media lift in the lower 1ft3 section, so the only concern will be possible loss of some of the upper 0.5ft3 resin to drain, but that loss maybe reduced/negated by utilizing a high quality Clack or Fleck upper screen, and reducing the softener's drain rate.

While 2.4 GPM drain rate is usually appropriate for a 10" diameter softener, because a Vortech lower plate is utilized instead of gravel under bedding, the drain flow rate should be reduced ~ 20%, thereby lowering the rate to 1.9-2.0 GPM. Changing the drain rate is achieved by swapping out the DLFC (drain line flow control) flow restrictor, typically located within the control valve's drain assembly.

For 1.5 ft3, a few of the current settings will need to be modified, such increasing the Capacity setting to 36K, and increasing the salt amount to 12 lbs.

Post #1 specifies 'Regen day - 14'. I anticipate the control valve is equipped with a flow meter, which is utilized to cause regeneration to occur based on when it calculates 24 or 36K grains capacity has been depleted. As such, a Regen Day setting will not be needed, but if there is a Days Override setting, it maybe programmed to 28-days which will cause regeneration to occur at least 1X per 28-days, only if water use is low and no regeneration has occurred within 28-days following the last previous regeneration.

A hardness test is similar to a snapshot as the hardness measured 5 gpg when the sample was obtained, but in municipal systems, hardness will often vary throughout the day/month depending on the number of water sources, your home's proximity to the closest source, water usage by city residents, distribution maintenance, and seasonal usage.

Generally advisable to obtain a Hach 5B Total Hardness test kit so you can easily periodically measure hardness of both the incoming supply, and softened water after the softener. Its advisable to program the softener's hardness setting 2 gpg higher than measured, to anticipate occasions when hardness maybe higher than a periodic test indicates.

Since you are using Sodium Chloride (salt) as the softener's regenerant, there will be no drawback to Post-fill and eliminating the 1-1.5 hour delay. Pre-fill and a delay will be typically utilized when using Potassium Chloride instead of salt as the amount of potassium that is dissolved, will vary as a condition of temperature. With a pre-fill setting, the brine tank water temperature will not have much opportunity to change before regeneration occurs, so the brine strength will remain consistent, even with the 1-1.5 hour delay to permit the full amount of potassium to be dissolved into brine.
 
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Bannerman

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it has never worked correctly. The first month, the brine draw didn't work.
1 ft3 resin has a total hardness reduction capacity of 32,000 grains.

As brine draw didn't work for the 1st month, that suggests it is likely, all 32,000 grains capacity became depleted. With topping-up with 24,000 grains capacity being eventually regenerated each cycle, that would mean ~8,000 grains capacity remained depleted, and so that unregenerated capacity will provide 0 hardness removal benefit, and increased hardness leakage through the resin bed will be the usual result.

To regenerate all 32K grains capacity, will require a 1X regeneration utilizing 20 lbs salt. As an alternative, suggest using a bucket to add 1 gallon water into the brine tank's brine well (4" diameter tube housing the float and pickup tube), then initiate an immediate manual regeneration. With the current 9 lb salt setting, the additional 1-gallon will result in 12 lbs salt becoming dissolved during the 1-1.5 hour delay.

After the 1st regeneration has concluded, initiate a 2nd manual regeneration utilizing the settings currently programmed. The 2nd regeneration could be initiated directly before you depart to bed for the night.

Between both additional manual regenerations, 21 lbs salt will have been dissolved, which is sufficient to regenerate all 32K capacity, which should reduce the amount of hardness leakage through the 1 ft3 resin and therefore result in somewhat higher quality soft water thereafter.
 
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SadGarbageWater

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1 ft3 resin has a total hardness reduction capacity of 32,000 grains.

As brine draw didn't work for the 1st month, that suggests it is likely, all 32,000 grains capacity became depleted. With topping-up with 24,000 grains capacity being eventually regenerated each cycle, that would mean ~8,000 grains capacity remained depleted, and so that unregenerated capacity will provide 0 hardness removal benefit, and increased hardness leakage through the resin bed will be the usual result.

To regenerate all 32K grains capacity, will require a 1X regeneration utilizing 20 lbs salt. As an alternative, suggest using a bucket to add 1 gallon water into the brine tank's brine well (4" diameter tube housing the float and pickup tube), then initiate an immediate manual regeneration. With the current 9 lb salt setting, the additional 1-gallon will result in 12 lbs salt becoming dissolved during the 1-1.5 hour delay.

After the 1st regeneration has concluded, initiate a 2nd manual regeneration utilizing the settings currently programmed. The 2nd regeneration could be initiated directly before you depart to bed for the night.

Between both additional manual regenerations, 21 lbs salt will have been dissolved, which is sufficient to regenerate all 32K capacity, which should reduce the amount of hardness leakage through the 1 ft3 resin and therefore result in somewhat higher quality soft water thereafter.
Once again, I am grateful for your time and detail. I'm so glad I reached out on this forum!

It sounds to me like obtaining a new 1.5 ft3 water softener is the best route. It will have down flow and post fill and will already be set up. While your instructions are very helpful and useful, I don't believe I have the skills to do this myself. Removing carbon & KDF, keeping KDF and then adding to another system via media guard, changing DLFC, post fill etc.; this seems overwhelming and out of my wheelhouse. I am not on great terms with the Westinghouse rep, and I don't think a service call would be fruitful. And because of this I may not get great service in the future. It may be best to part ways with this overpriced machine. Your location says Ontario, otherwise I'd have you here in a heartbeat!

I won't give up just yet and will consider all options, but an alternative would be to go online and buy & install new tank. Since we already have initial installation, I hope it's not too difficult to swap out a tank. I think a KDF 55 media guard is a good idea in the carbon tank, and this sounds like something I can purchase... I'm at a little bit of a loss as to where to go for these items. Local dealers have not been as.... knowledgeable about the process. I purchased the carbon tank from this site: https://waterestore.com/ and could just as easily purchase a softener and media guard from them. Do you have any recommendations, or is that allowed on this forum?
 
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SadGarbageWater

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After the 1st regeneration has concluded, initiate a 2nd manual regeneration utilizing the settings currently programmed. The 2nd regeneration could be initiated directly before you depart to bed for the night.
Hi Bannerman - we did this (two regens in same day, one with extra water in brine well) and it seems to be helping! I still have spotty dishes and other small issues, but I'm assuming this will get better once the hot water in the tank gets replaced with softened water.

Because there is still carbon in the current softener setup and we seem to have leakage due to the limited contact time with the resin, should we continue to override and regenerate every 14 days or so? I believe I read that carbon needs to be backwashed a little more frequently than resin, which would make this necessary for our tank.

We are considering recommendations to replace carbon & KDF with more softening resin in the Westinghouse tank, but I'm also leaning toward using this system as-is for a while until I can find a system that will work better for me overall (a new softener and installing a media guard in the carbon tank).

I contacted the company who did our softener in FL and he said he usually recommends a 2 ft3 carbon for city water and 1.5 ft3 for softener with poly resin media aldex 8% for a 2.5 bathroom home. Hopefully we can get by with the 1.5 ft3 catalytic carbon and 1 ft3 water softener for now, but if I do get a separate softener tank, should we get 1.5 ft3 (making the carbon & softener the same size)?

I've seen on this forum that online dealers are not recommended... is that the case for all? I am very wary of dealers after my latest experience.

Thank you again for your help!
 

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I read that carbon needs to be backwashed a little more frequently than resin, which would make this necessary for our tank.
Not so. Unlike resin, carbon will not require any capacity to be regenerated.

Carbon requires backwashing for 2 main reasons.
1) to flush away sediment/debris that entered in the water supply, which accumulated in the media.
2) to prevent channeling through the media. Water flow through the granular media will over time, erode a path (channel) through the media. Because water will always follow the path of least resistance, once a channel from the top to the bottom of the carbon bed is created, much of the water will pass through that channel without much contact with any carbon media, and water that does contact the carbon along the path will cause it to be overused. With a lower restrictive path, there will be significantly less water passing through the remaining remaining carbon media.

I anticipate your municipal water will be usually clear of any visible sediment or other debris, while there is no issue with more frequent backwashing, the usual recommendation will be to backwash the carbon every 30-days to eliminate the potential for any channeling to develop.
 

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Not so. Unlike resin, carbon will not require any capacity to be regenerated.

Carbon requires backwashing for 2 main reasons.
1) to flush away sediment/debris that entered in the water supply, which accumulated in the media.
2) to prevent channeling through the media. Water flow through the granular media will over time, erode a path (channel) through the media. Because water will always follow the path of least resistance, once a channel from the top to the bottom of the carbon bed is created, much of the water will pass through that channel without much contact with any carbon media, and water that does contact the carbon along the path will cause it to be overused. With a lower restrictive path, there will be significantly less water passing through the remaining remaining carbon media.

I anticipate your municipal water will be usually clear of any visible sediment or other debris, while there is no issue with more frequent backwashing, the usual recommendation will be to backwash the carbon every 30-days to eliminate the potential for any channeling to develop.
Just when I think I am beginning to understand, I realize I know very little. If this is the case with carbon, does the same apply with the catalytic carbon tank? It’s set up to backwash every 4 days.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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I dont have no where near the knowledge that bannerman has
but I am wondering why your water is still making you itch??
like its just not soft enough...??

In my region Indianapolis our incoming city water is 23 parts hard and full of lime
and maybe a slight amount of iron

I have to set the 48,000 grain Clack units we install at about 12 lbs of salt per regeneration
and set the hardness at on average 23 parts hard to make most everyone happy..... If I try to
tweak them down lower it seems I hear about it down the road....
No complaints is what I shoot for and if they use an extra bag or two of salt per year
so be it.....

well water has a lot of iron in it and can be set less or more......


I am just wondering if you just have the water softener set at too wimpy a setting.

to do the job.....???

Maybe you ought to try a heavier hardness and salt setting and see what happens.... it cant hurt...

good luck
 
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SadGarbageWater

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I dont have no where near the knowledge that bannerman has
but I am wondering why your water is still making you itch??
like its just not soft enough...??

In my region Indianapolis our incoming city water is 23 parts hard and full of lime
and maybe a slight amount of iron

I have to set the 48,000 grain Clack units we install at about 12 lbs of salt per regeneration
and set the hardness at on average 23 parts hard to make most everyone happy..... If I try to
tweak them down lower it seems I hear about it down the road....
No complaints is what I shoot for and if they use an extra bag or two of salt per year
so be it.....

well water has a lot of iron in it and can be set less or more......


I am just wondering if you just have the water softener set at too wimpy a setting.

to do the job.....???

Maybe you ought to try a heavier hardness and salt setting and see what happens.... it cant hurt...

good luck
Thanks - I can certainly try this and see if it helps! Our tank is such a strange configuration... I'm willing to try anything to make it work until we eventually replace it. Right now it's set at 9lbs of salt to regen ~25k gallons. It's set at prefill and soaks for 4 hours before regen. I could bump this up to 10 lbs (or more). It's a 10x44 tank instead of a 9x44, which sounds like there's not the same contact time for hardness removal, so I currently have the DO set at 14 days. I think I can bump that up to 28 and it would still work? I've always done a 14-day regen on every softener, but am willing to change it if it doesn't harm anything or diminish results.

I'm okay with using a few more bags of salt per year if it means better water. Even with all the changes, my hair is still dry & stringy at ends and oily, itchy, and dandruff at scalp (after having water softeners for years, I know this isn't normal). In the 6 months we've had this softener, I've used several different shampoos (& resorted to an ACV rinse with RO water) trying to make my hair healthy again. I travel monthly for work and my scalp calms down after the first shower away. It's really bizarre - I'm desperate for "normal" water. It feels defeating since this system cost 3x what my softener in FL cost.

Any thoughts on the catalytic carbon tank? are we overdoing it with the backwashing? It came from manufacturer set to backwash every 4 days but I am happy to change this if necessary.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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Thanks - I can certainly try this and see if it helps! Our tank is such a strange configuration... I'm willing to try anything to make it work until we eventually replace it. Right now it's set at 9lbs of salt to regen ~25k gallons. It's set at prefill and soaks for 4 hours before regen. I could bump this up to 10 lbs (or more). It's a 10x44 tank instead of a 9x44, which sounds like there's not the same contact time for hardness removal, so I currently have the DO set at 14 days. I think I can bump that up to 28 and it would still work? I've always done a 14-day regen on every softener, but am willing to change it if it doesn't harm anything or diminish results.

I'm okay with using a few more bags of salt per year if it means better water. Even with all the changes, my hair is still dry & stringy at ends and oily, itchy, and dandruff at scalp (after having water softeners for years, I know this isn't normal). In the 6 months we've had this softener, I've used several different shampoos (& resorted to an ACV rinse with RO water) trying to make my hair healthy again. I travel monthly for work and my scalp calms down after the first shower away. It's really bizarre - I'm desperate for "normal" water. It feels defeating since this system cost 3x what my softener in FL cost.

Any thoughts on the catalytic carbon tank? are we overdoing it with the backwashing? It came from manufacturer set to backwash every 4 days but I am happy to change this if necessary.


I dont know what brand of water softener you have ,,, maybe it is just some junk from
the hardware stores... It kind of sounds like you got took to the cleaners from the
local plumber or water softener guy.. You ought to post a picture of it here on the site

I only deal with metered Clack WS1 units with the #10 mineral beds in them...
14 days between regenerations is probably stretching it out depending on how many
people are in the home.....

The older style "non metered units" from Culligan were set up to regenerate every 3 days
so I dont think you are gonna hurt anything bumping it down to every 7..

The back washing catalytic carbon filter can regenerate as much as needed
I have my 2 cubic foot unit regenerate every 5 days .... it probably could go longer
but it does not hurt the filter to be cleaned often...
 

SadGarbageWater

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I dont know what brand of water softener you have ,,, maybe it is just some junk from
the hardware stores... It kind of sounds like you got took to the cleaners from the
local plumber or water softener guy.. You ought to post a picture of it here on the site

I only deal with metered Clack WS1 units with the #10 mineral beds in them...
14 days between regenerations is probably stretching it out depending on how many
people are in the home..... The older style "non metered units" used to regenerate every 3 days
so I dont think you are gonna hurt anything bumping it down to every 7..

The back washing catalytic carbon filter can regenerate as much as needed
I have my 2 cubic foot unit regenerate every 5 days .... it probably could go longer
but it does not hurt the filter to be cleaned often...
I posted a link to the softener above- Westinghouse progressive revolution. It’s “apparently” the best in the market . That’s what the dealer spews, anyway. I had one from Lowe’s several years ago that delivered better water than this. It could be because they didn’t have things set correctly and for the first full month it didn’t work. I’m working on getting it set up for our water and hopefully not have to throw it out just yet. This site has been helpful but I’m starting to see how little is understood about proper water setup and it’s overwhelming.

Bumped salt to 10, capacity at 25k, DO regen 14

Catalytic carbon still set to backwash every 4 days.
 

SadGarbageWater

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If you’re still with me on this thread - I am still at a loss!

What would the pros do??


I just went out of town for work and my skin and scalp went back to “normal” in both places. One place had well water and the other was municipal water (no filters at either place) - this is what leads me to believe that there is something not working with our particular setup. Or just not working for us! My first shower back at home and already my hair/skin is garbage. This makes no sense unless there is either some type of malfunction or I have a carbon sensitivity. It’s possible but seems unlikely as it’s rare…

Can any pros weigh in on the following? I think my questions are getting lost in other details.

1. We may be able to modify our current softener but aren’t knowledgeable in this field. We have some great suggestions above from @Bannerman to alter a few things, but really don’t know where to begin… how do we know who to trust to help do the work? Is there someone on here who can point us in the right direction (is there a network of people to call upon)?


2. If we end up getting rid of our current softener, do we need to get a 1.5 ft3? I am getting mixed results when I research this, and a lot of resources are indicating that you want your carbon tank larger than your softener. I currently have a 1.5 ft3 catalytic carbon. Should we have gone larger for more contact time?
(I have also read that some people put high quality resin in the softener and then put carbon after the softener, so this is even more confusing)


Even after the two regenerations and adjusting settings, the water improved some but I’m still having issues even if water is reading “soft” (with skin, hair, dishes). It almost feels greasy during use and then skin/hair is so dry after. I’ve done everything - special soaps, using 1/2 to 1/4 of what I used to, etc.…

I’m familiar with the “slimy” feel of water softeners as I’ve had them for years, and actually love/prefer that feeling. This is not the same at all.

We are in over $9k at this point. I would love to just trash it all and start over, but if I can make the tank work, I have to try. It’s upflow and prefill - not sure if I can change those settings but maybe that would help too? Does flow rate matter and can that be changed (coming in house and going through the tanks)? I just can’t figure out what could be going wrong! Our psi was super high after we had our water line replaced. We have since adjusted it down but could that have messed anything up? I tried to get a dealer to take a look but they only measured hardness and said “it’s working”. Could there be salt leakage or anything?


I have tried to get Westinghouse (LeverEdge) to take this tank back but they say it’s “up to the dealer”, so that’s probably not going to happen. I feel like short of litigation, we are stuck with this. We have been struggling with it for months. After installation, we noticed a difference in our water and it was great at first (for a very, very short time), but I think that’s just because the incoming water was so bad and it was a big contrast. Ever since then, I have been trying to figure this out because I dread showering. After spending this much money, no one should have to feel this way about their water!

We can be pretty handy IF we know what to do - so if there is a professional willing to provide assistance (troubleshooting, instructions, and where to purchase items needed), I would be happy to compensate for time. We need someone to ask us the right questions and direct us to the fix! Or if we can find someone in the Nashville or surrounding area (we are an hour south) who has knowledge of this topic and not just the tank they sell, that would be helpful.


Thanks in advance!
 
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Reach4

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Even after the two regenerations and adjusting settings, the water changed some but I’m still having issues even if water is reading “soft” (with skin, hair, dishes).
You got the Hach 5-B. What are the hardness readings from that, before and after?

I think you want a low range chlorine test kit. I had looked at low range testing, LAMOTTE 2963LR-G .25 ppm to 10 ppm chlorine in the past. Do some more searching.

I also suggest you get a cheap pH meter and a calibration buffering packet. You combine the packet with 250 ml of distilled water. Read the directions. https://www.ebay.com/itm/226556810651 for example.

To measure the ml, note that 1 ml weighs 1 gram. A cheap cooking scale can be zeroed (tare) with the empty jar, and you pour the right amount of distilled water. Save a glass jar or two.

I think that unit lets you use either one or two calibration points. The directions are a little hard to follow in that regard. The units with a screwdriver calibration are easier to use, but I did not see that bundled with the calibration buffer packets.

Store the unit with the sensor dipped into calibration solution. You can use the cap to hold the solution.
 
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SadGarbageWater

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You got the Hach 5-B. What are the hardness readings from that, before and after?

I think you want a low range chlorine test kit. I had looked at low range testing, LAMOTTE 2963LR-G .25 ppm to 10 ppm chlorine in the past. Do some more searching.

I also suggest you get a cheap pH meter and a calibration buffering packet. You combine the packet with 200 or 250 ml (forget which) of water. Read the directions. https://www.ebay.com/itm/226556810651 for example.

To measure the ml, note that 1 ml weighs 1 gram. A cheap cooking scale can be zeroed (tare) with the empty jar, and you pour the right amount of distilled water. Save a glass jar or two.

I think that unit lets you use either one or two calibration points. The directions are a little hard to follow in that regard. The units with a screwdriver calibration are easier to use, but I did not see that bundled with the calibration buffer packets.

Store the unit with the sensor dipped into calibration solution. You can use the cap to hold the solution.
Thanks @Reach4 - I appreciate you reaching out. I feel like I'm going insane and try to tell myself it's normal... then as soon as I go out of town, I realize it's not me, it's the water.

I just ordered the free chlorine test: https://www.zoro.com/lamotte-test-strip-free-chlorine-0to10-ppm-pk25-2964-g/i/G2141781/

I also ordered this today (I was out of town and didn't want it sitting outside in the cold) - https://www.hach.com/p-total-hardness-test-kit-model-5-b/145300

I have a pH reader but I haven't used it yet: https://a.co/d/3PHtIQD

Once I have all of this measured, I'll post results. If there's anything else I need to check in the meantime, I will!
 

SadGarbageWater

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If you don't have at least a 6.68 calibration packet, get that. And look out for suitable jars.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1254893247...lution&hash=item1d37bf22c8:g:lYIAAOSwVatjDirf would probably take a while to arrive. Watch for jars. Get distilled water. 250 ml is fluid 8.45351 ounces.
the reader came with one 6.68 packet. when you say suitable jars, I'm not sure exactly what that means. glass jar? or a specific size? the instructions show them using what looks like just a standard glass cup.
 
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