American Standard Champion 4 1.6gpf vs 1.28gpf

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SuperAcer99

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I recently had three American Standard Champion 4 1.6gpf right height toilets installed in my house that I absolutely love that replaced the builder grade 1.6gpf Crane toilets that came with the house. I realize that they do not receive favorable reviews on this forum, but I love them and no longer use a plunger. A family member in California would like to replace their builder grade toilets too, but I discovered on the internet that only 1.28gpf toilets are permitted to be sold or installed in CA. Therefore, I am hesitant to recommend the 1.28gpf AS Champion 4, since I don't know if it will be the same experience powerful flush wise as the 1.6gpf AS Champion 4. What do you all think?
 

Terry

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The 1.28 Champion will work for your friend.
I prefer the Cadet 3 over the Champion, as they take up less space and work fine with the 3" flush valve.
The Champion also uses a 3", but for marketing they put a 4" over the top similar to a funnel.
It's still a 3" outlet though. The Cadet weighs less and takes up less space, and works as well. But if your friends like the idea of a large toilet in their bathroom, why not?
 

WJcandee

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I know you are using "powerful flush" to mean "effective flush", but it's still worth noting that in a gravity toilet, "power" really isn't the issue. Because the flush is really the creation of a siphon in the bowl to suck (not push) what's in it out and down the trapway, the design of the trapway is really the issue in how effective the flush will be. The three-tenths of a gallon difference in water usage is accomplished only-partly by reducing the water used in the flush part of the cycle. The rest comes from a slight reduction in water-spot size (so it doesn't take as much to refill the bowl) and precise adjustment of the refill so water isn't wasted down the drain by overfilling the toilet. In a Toto 1.28gpf toilet like the Drake II, one gallon is used in the flush, and .28 gallon for refill of the bowl. In a 1.6gpf Toto GMax toilet, .46 gallons is used in refill of the bowl, and 1.14 gallons is used in the flush.

So less than half of the saved water comes from the flush component. Other manufacturers may do it differently.

[For our math fans, GMax uses a 40 percent refill ratio, so if x is the amount of water used in the flush, x+.4x will be the total water usage, so 1.4x=1.6gallons, and x=1.6/1.4=1.14. The Drake II uses 28 percent refill ratio, so that math is easier to do in one's head: one gallon to the flush, .28 gallon to the refill.]

But the bottom line is that people who have Toto 1.28 toilets often post on here to swear that they can't tell the difference with their equivalent Toto 1.6 toilets.
 

Wallijonn

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Just make sure that she buys it from a Plumbing House/Distributor and not from HD or Lowes. Ask if they allow returns if it doesn't work right or if she can get a full refund if it is defective. Call at least three different stores to get best price. Then ask what they charge for installation in case she cannot do her own installs.
 

Khinanight

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I recently had three American Standard Champion 4 1.6gpf right height toilets installed in my house that I absolutely love that replaced the builder grade 1.6gpf Crane toilets that came with the house. I realize that they do not receive favorable reviews on this forum, but I love them and no longer use a plunger. A family member in California would like to replace their builder grade toilets too, but I discovered on the internet that only 1.28gpf toilets are permitted to be sold or installed in CA. Therefore, I am hesitant to recommend the 1.28gpf AS Champion 4, since I don't know if it will be the same experience powerful flush wise as the 1.6gpf AS Champion 4. What do you all think?
Green is the key now in California. Only 1.28 gpf can be sold unless you buy it out of state or online. The 1.28 gpf is slightly weaker that the 1.6 gpf but the majority of people will never notice. The Cadet 3's have an outstanding flush and will do the job. I have been selling toilets for 15 years and the number of efficient flushing toilets is increasing.
 

Plumbs Away

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I recently had three American Standard Champion 4 1.6gpf right height toilets installed in my house that I absolutely love that replaced the builder grade 1.6gpf Crane toilets that came with the house. I realize that they do not receive favorable reviews on this forum, but I love them and no longer use a plunger. A family member in California would like to replace their builder grade toilets too, but I discovered on the internet that only 1.28gpf toilets are permitted to be sold or installed in CA. Therefore, I am hesitant to recommend the 1.28gpf AS Champion 4, since I don't know if it will be the same experience powerful flush wise as the 1.6gpf AS Champion 4. What do you all think?
I also have the Champion 4 1.6 GPF right height one-piece and love it. My 1.28 GPF American Standard Vormax Optum works really well, as does the Champion 4 Max 1.28 GPF, which I installed last year for a friend who has major gastro-intestinal issues. The Vormax and Champion 4 Max are not presently available as a one-piece unit, but the Cadet 3 1.28 GPF is.
 

Jadnashua

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The general consensus on the AS Champion is that those sold by the big box stores tend not to be as consistent as those sold through the plumbing stores. As a result, while a good design, a significantly large sample of them sold to DIY'ers tend to be defective in some (often minor) way. Sometimes, the defects are not so minor. To a professional, having to exchange one along with the customer approval situation can be a losing proposition, and businesses aren't likely to survive long losing money. A homeowner, may not notice the defect (if it exists), but if he does, it is an inconvenience rather than a job or referral loss. So, if you get a 'good' one, you're golden, but too many people come here to also report that they don't work right out of the box. Some of the designs have some weird internals, and some don't. Therefore, sometimes, when it comes time to replace the fill valve or the flapper (or whatever is in your toilet), it's either harder to find, or costs more. Consistent, reliable products, like a quality tool, are things some people seek, and once you've used one, you tend to notice those that are inferior more and appreciate the good ones.

So, for about the same money, you can get something with a good track record, easy to find repair parts, or you can take your chances with AS stuff at a big box store. You might be more satisfied getting it at a plumbing supply house, but then, you may get lucky.

IOW, their stuff can work fine, but individual examples with defects turn up too often compared to others. Pot luck.
 
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