Who's Lying? Well Pump & Tank

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Because of the flow-control characteristics of the shower head you will see virtually the same flow over the full range of a normal pressure switch.

That is a matter of opinion and it's not mine. I can tell a large difference in my shower before the Pump comes on.

bob...
 

Valveman

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I have a very small tank (4 gallon draw down) on my 25 GPM 2HP pump. That is because I hate the low pressure I get in the shower, as the tank is draining from 70 to 50 PSI. Once the pump comes on at 50 and the system quickly builds to 60 where the CSV holds the pressure constant, the pressure in the shower is tremendously better. So with a small tank, I get constant pressure in the shower very quickly. With a large tank, the pressure in the shower is low and continues to get lower for the first half of my shower. As soon as the pump comes on and the CSV is maintaining a constant pressure, the shower pressure is great. People who have experienced this and now have a CSV on their well, tell me that the pressure is so strong, they don't even need soap in the shower any longer. The constant pressure from the CSV just blast the dirt off, so no soap is needed.

I was going to mention that you should be using an expansion tank after a pressure reducer on the house line. This is not for thermal expansion, as the pressure reducing valve should have a thermal expansion by-pass. The expansion tank is to absorb "creep" from the pressure reducing valve. Without an expansion tank, a "creep" of only 1 teaspoon of water would cause very high pressure on the house side of the PRV. An expansion tank is just another component you have to add when using a PRV to control house pressure. And if the PRV does hold the house pressure constant on the house, then the water in the expansion tank will get stale and contaminated. Then when the water is turned off to the house for any reason, the contaminated water in the expansion tank is expressed into the house lines, contaminating everything. Creep on a PRV does happen, you just haven't seen it because of the added expansion tank. There are really only two kinds of valves ever made, those that leak or "creep", and those that will leak or "creep".

I don't understand why anyone would want a system that needs to be engineered precisely, balanced perfectly, and then used very carefully, to prevent destroying the pump system. Adding a CSV means the system can be used anyway you want without worrying about it. A CSV controlled system is even less expensive, as it can utilize a much smaller pressure tank.

I can see where engineers and irrigation contractors might be concerned about their job security as the CSV eliminates the need for "engineering" and "balancing" perfectly. The CSV can make water systems do some incredible things. Those who learn what the CSV can do, are designing systems that are years ahead of their competitors. Engineers and irrigators who continually try to design around a CSV, are not using the latest technology available to enhance their system designs.
 

Wet_Boots

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I was going to mention that you should be using an expansion tank after a pressure reducer on the house line. This is not for thermal expansion, as the pressure reducing valve should have a thermal expansion by-pass. The expansion tank is to absorb "creep" from the pressure reducing valve. Without an expansion tank, a "creep" of only 1 teaspoon of water would cause very high pressure on the house side of the PRV. An expansion tank is just another component you have to add when using a PRV to control house pressure. And if the PRV does hold the house pressure constant on the house, then the water in the expansion tank will get stale and contaminated. Then when the water is turned off to the house for any reason, the contaminated water in the expansion tank is expressed into the house lines, contaminating everything. Creep on a PRV does happen, you just haven't seen it because of the added expansion tank. There are really only two kinds of valves ever made, those that leak or "creep", and those that will leak or "creep".
If the future date of 'creep' is thirty years after installation, I will find something else to worry about. If street pressure is at a damaging-to-plumbing level, only a PRV can effectively protect it. Enough 'creep' and kaboom goes whatever is most fragile. Hope it isn't the water heater.

I don't understand why anyone would want a system that needs to be engineered precisely, balanced perfectly, and then used very carefully, to prevent destroying the pump system. Adding a CSV means the system can be used anyway you want without worrying about it. A CSV controlled system is even less expensive, as it can utilize a much smaller pressure tank.
Same reason someone drives a stick shift vehicle, saving money, and gaining performance? If I can make effective use of 70+ psi in a lawn sprinkler system, I want it.

I can see where engineers and irrigation contractors might be concerned about their job security as the CSV eliminates the need for "engineering" and "balancing" perfectly. The CSV can make water systems do some incredible things. Those who learn what the CSV can do, are designing systems that are years ahead of their competitors. Engineers and irrigators who continually try to design around a CSV, are not using the latest technology available to enhance their system designs.
Sounds a bit like manufacturer-speak. Lower the pressures. Reduce the distance that a sprinkler will spray. Install more sprinklers. It's a plan.
 

Wet_Boots

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I can expalin it to you but, I can't understand it for you. Some people can only learn things the hard way, others just never learn.
Ohh, some of us out there understand real fine. In my particular trade, the trend is to use more product to do a job, than was used a couple of decades ago (and the manufacturers are just in tears about it </sarcasm>)

When all my customers hand me blank checks, I'll be happy to turn the task of well-balancing into a four-or-five figure project, with new everything. ('course, with everything new and properly plumbed, indoors and out, there's nothing to balance)
 

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There is always balancing that needs to be done when not using a CSV. The CSV allows you to vary the irrigation to the requirements of the yard, instead of having to perfectly balance everything to match the pump itself. Extra cost, I think NOT!! It is actually less expensive to use the CSV and a smaller tank. An 80 gallon bladder tank can cost $600 to $800. A CSV and a 20 gallon tank cost $275, and will let you do things you couldn't do with 3 of the 80 gallon tanks.

The CSV allows you to use water anyway you want. It can actually conserve water by allowing you to run 5 GPM zone in the front yard, a 12 GPM zone on the side yards, and a 20 GPM zone in the back yard. Without the CSV, EVERY zone would need to be exactly 20 GPM, even if the yard or zone did not need that much water.

The USDA is using Cycle Stop Valves for VRI or variable rate irrigation. Varying the flow from the pump to precisely irrigate the crop as needed, can and is saving tremendous amounts of water. Here is a link to one report, there are others.

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/techq_16.html

So the CSV allows you complete flexibility in your irrigation demands. It eliminates the need for precise engineering and "expert" balancing of the zones to the pump. And the CSV does all this while costing much less than a big tank set up. So I don't understand the reluctance to use, innovative, beneficial, and less expensive technology. The only reason I can see for this reluctance, is because the engineer and irrigation contractor must now be educated in this new technology, to be able to take advantage of this ability in their designs. Some times you just can't teach the old dogs a new trick. Maybe we just need some younger engineers and irrigation contractors that are not afraid to learn something new.
 

Wet_Boots

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When I am required to have 70+ psi supply pressure in order to overcome deficiencies elsewhere, and cannot afford to add anything with an insertion loss of more than 2-3 psi, I don't see any specialty valve to serve my purposes. That's the reality of service work.

That a number of sprinkler manufacturers will make a recommendation of having 50 psi at their heads, seems to be at odds with a product line that limits supply pressure to 60 psi, since there are zone valve, master valve, RPZ backflow preventer, and pipe losses to subtract from the supply, losses that can be near to 20 psi. Hunter wants 70 psi at the pressure tank. Are they lying?
 

Valveman

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You certainly need enough pressure to make up for the losses. I always like the backflow device before the pressure regulation. That way the losses are incurred before the pressure is regulated. But, you have said it so may times, that I am working on a 70 PSI valve in the plastic version. It will take a little time but, I will send you the very first one available.
 

Wet_Boots

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I don't think you have to be all that concerned with 75 psi pressure tanks these days. Haven't noticed many new ones lately. The sprinkler mfrs are busy playing marketing games, trying to make a sprinkler spray "look better" which is counter-intuitive, since the desirable close-in spray they want is way more than is actually needed. This results in new product that won't spray as far as old product, so we sometimes have to amp up the pressure to get the same coverage, unless one was lucky enough to have saved old nozzles from way back.
 
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