What well pump would you buy and why?

[Thatguy]

300' + 60 psi = 440'
HP = gpm(hd)/40(efficiency) = 10(440)/40(60) = 1.8 hp for frictionless pipes.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pe-pipe-pressure-loss-d_619.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/peh-pvc-pipes-pressure-drop-d_317.html

 

[Gary Slusser]

My point is Peak demand has nothing to do with the original posters question,

Really? Although he asked; What pump... and why?

You can't size a pump without knowing how much water you need it to deliver at what pressure you want to operate the pump at.

You think he meant brand, and eventually I got you to tell him what brand after a number of posts where all you did was attack what I said, like here again, and again.

Nor does peak demand have anything to do with well production.

The only people I see that mentioned well production/recovery rate is you and nhmaster. He is actually saying you need to know that to size the pump. I disagree with him and agree with you; it is not needed but, I didn't bring production or recovery rate into the discussion as you imply.

In your last reply, you say; Recovery rate is what the well produces.No more no less....Upper
Actually the production/recovery rate is the gpm that enters the well when you take water out of the well. You take water out of the storage volume of the well, not just the gpm running into it.

So until you take some water OUT of the well, a well doesn't produce anything except an expense to put a hole in the yard meant to collect and store water in for future use.

IMO the water you take out of the well is what the well produces.

Nhmaster must mistakenly believe that the pump should not remove more gpm than the recovery rate of the well; and although some people believe that, that is simply wrong. And I'm sure you agree but if not, you're wrong too.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[NHmaster]

Nhmaster must mistakenly believe that the pump should not remove more gpm than the recovery rate of the well; and although some people believe that, that is simply wrong. And I'm sure you agree but if not, you're wrong too.[/QUOTE]


You can't size a pump without knowing how much water you need it to deliver at what pressure you want to operate the pump at.

What? If you don't have the capacity at the well, the volume and pressure you want at the fixtures is a moot point. Gee, I want 80lbs and 50 gpm so if I buy big enough pump I can get it? You're not making any sense here at all.

Gary, apparently you do a lot more conditioning than well pumps. If you continue to draw past the recovery rate of the well (and if you are say filling a swimming pool or running sprinklers you will) once you pump the storage down you run out of water. Been there, seen that lots and lots of times. Stick with conditioning.

 

[Gary Slusser]

If you continue to draw past the recovery rate of the well (and if you are say filling a swimming pool or running sprinklers you will) once you pump the storage down you run out of water. Been there, seen that lots and lots of times. Stick with conditioning.

So again you want to size a pump no larger gpm wise than the recovery rate gpm of the well!

That's what I said you meant, and you're wrong but yes, all wells will go 'dry' when you pump them down to the pump's inlet.

If 50 gpm at 80 psi is needed the driller needs to know that peak demand etc. so he can select the diameter etc. of the well before he drills the well. Then he or a pump guy sizes the pump to git'er done. Sad to say that most plumbers don't know how to do that or work on pumps or wells.

BTW, I've done "well pumps" for 20 years. As a Gould's Platinum Dealer and I hope you aren't teaching pump sizing! And since you got personal, I think you should stick with teaching plumbing and plumbing codes; stuff you can read to someone out of books that someone else wrote.

You have stated that he needs the recovery rate gpm of the well and he could find it on the pump chart, that is incorrect.

And now you're defending the error by attacking my experience and telling me to stay with conditioning.

But it isn't me saying such things as "If you continue to draw past the recovery rate of the well...."

Question; If you don't pump more gpm than the recovery rate gpm of a well, how do you use any of the water stored in the well (storage capacity)? You're leaving the well full of water and it just sits there. Getting stagnant, rusty and smelly.

 

[NHmaster]

So again you want to size a pump no larger gpm wise than the recovery rate gpm of the well!

Did I ever say to size to recovery? Oh no I didn't But you certainly DO need to know that number.

That's what I said you meant, and you're wrong but yes, all wells will go 'dry' when you pump them down to the pump's inlet.

Yes they do and they go dry when you pump way past capacity

If 50 gpm at 80 psi is needed the driller needs to know that peak demand etc. so he can select the diameter etc. of the well before he drills the well. Then he or a pump guy sizes the pump to git'er done. Sad to say that most plumbers don't know how to do that or work on pumps or wells.

That's the biggest croc of crap I have ever read. NO WELL DRILLER in the world would select diameter ect. before drilling. You seriously need to look into well drilling before spewing that crap line out. You drill the well. If it does not produce enough, you drill another. So I just call up my driller and say" Hey Bob, I need 18 gpm can you get that for me?" and ole Bob comes over, heads out into my back yard and decides to drill say an 8" well? WTF?

BTW, I've done "well pumps" for 20 years. As a Gould's Platinum Dealer and I hope you aren't teaching pump sizing! And since you got personal, I think you should stick with teaching plumbing and plumbing codes; stuff you can read to someone out of books that someone else wrote.

Anyone that sells pumps can be a Platinum Dealer, it means you sell pumps and since most of what you do is online sales... Well....

Been a plumbing contractor for 36 years now. Teaching for 3 do the math.


You have stated that he needs the recovery rate gpm of the well and he could find it on the pump chart, that is incorrect.

You can on my charts. I have no idea what you are using.

And now you're defending the error by attacking my experience and telling me to stay with conditioning.

But it isn't me saying such things as "If you continue to draw past the recovery rate of the well...."

Question; If you don't pump more gpm than the recovery rate gpm of a well, how do you use any of the water stored in the well (storage capacity)? You're leaving the well full of water and it just sits there. Getting stagnant, rusty and smelly.

And so by that logic the water you pump never gets replaced. Smoke another one Gary.


And yes I will "Attack" you when you come out and say I am wrong because I am not wrong. You take great pleasure in being the supposed expert on these threads when in fact what you really are is a salesman with a little knowledge and damn little experience.

Oh and one more thing I seem to have that you surprisingly do not and that would be a pump installers license.

 

[Waterwelldude]

If I may put in my 2 cents.

It is a big help for the driller to have an idea of the amount of water that is needed, and what it is going to be used for.

I am going to use my area as an example..

1. For a normal house hold 4bd 2bth.

The well will only use 10' of screen, witch in most cases, that is more than enough.

2. A farmer on the other hand may need 100gpm or more. In that case the well may need 20 or 30' of screen, for that given sand.

Both home and farm wells are in the same sand.

So, it is helpful for the driller to know what the well will be used for, and how much water is needed at what pressure.


In other parts of the country, for large amounts of water, two or more wells may be required.

As any good well driller "should know", is how much water is available for any given well he drilled.



Travis

 

[NHmaster]

We don't do sand wells in these parts. We drill through bedrock into the aquifer. Capacity is a product of prior knowledge of the area and the services of a geologist for the most part. Either way though, wanting say 18 gpm and getting 18 gpm are not the same thing. Sizing a pump by what you want to have is useless. You drill, you see what you have and you size the pump from there. Water storage in the casing is indeed a part of that process but knowing the recovery is essential along with average static. (it changes throughout the seasons) Some wells recover faster than others.

 

[Upper]

Wells recover to the rate of which they produce.No well recovers faster than another,it may produce more but again that has nothing to do with recovery..Upper..It is what is is........

 

[Gary Slusser]

Capacity is a product of prior knowledge of the area and the services of a geologist for the most part.

Either way though, wanting say 18 gpm and getting 18 gpm are not the same thing.

Sizing a pump by what you want to have is useless.

You drill, you see what you have and you size the pump from there.

Water storage in the casing is indeed a part of that process but knowing the recovery is essential along with average static. (it changes throughout the seasons)

Some wells recover faster than others.

I disagree with all of that.

 

[NHmaster]

Wells recover to the rate of which they produce.No well recovers faster than another,it may produce more but again that has nothing to do with recovery..Upper..It is what is is........

not sure what you mean here. Recovery, production same thing? Perhaps we have a difference in opinion over terms. I define recovery/production as the rate at which the well will recover it's static level. In other words if you pull say 20' worth of water off the static level, the time it takes (pump off) for the static to come back up. Some wells take a longer time for that process to occur than others.

 

[Gary Slusser]

not sure what you mean here. Recovery, production same thing? Perhaps we have a difference in opinion over terms. I define recovery/production as the rate at which the well will recover it's static level. In other words if you pull say 20' worth of water off the static level, the time it takes (pump off) for the static to come back up. Some wells take a longer time for that process to occur than others.

Recovery and production are two different things. Recovery happens after "production".

A well doesn't produce anything until you start taking water out of the well with a pump usually. Until then it is nothing but a hole in the ground that collected water as it was designed to do, at the recovery rate gpm of the water running into it.

Pulling X feet off the static water level as you say is called draw down. You will always have draw down IF the recovery rate gpm is less than the gpm being used in the building etc..

The time it takes the well to recover, come back up to the static water level as you say, varies based of how much draw down and then, the recovery rate gpm.

The above and below this applies to both fully cased screened sand and gravel aquifer wells and consolidated or unconsolidated aquifer rock bore wells.

Capacity, or we could say production, of a well system, is the stored volume in gallons, that's only those above the pump's inlet, based on the static water level and the DIAMETER of the well plus the recovery rate gpm of the well.

A 6" well has 1.47 gallons of usable water per foot of water above the pump's inlet IF the pump is sized to be able to deliver it from the depth the pump is set at. Many/most submersible pumps are not sized to do that because the pump selected can supply the required peak demand gpm of the building etc. without the draw down going that deep.

A 5" well has roughly 1 gal/foot and a 4" about a half gal/foot. Smaller diameter wells than 5" or 6" will usually have a deeper draw down and thereby require a higher recovery rate gpm than a rock bore well since most rock bore wells usually have to be deeper to find water but are larger diameter and have a larger storage capacity than smaller diameter sand and gravel wells that can be 2" and next to no draw down because their recovery rate is higher than the peak demand of the property.

Of course there are much larger diameter water wells also; residential wells commonly go up to 8" and commercial/industrial wells go up to 36" and larger.

And regardless of the well type, recovery rate, diameter, depth, static water level etc., the pump must be sized to be able to deliver the peak demand gpm required by the building and other water uses such as irrigation etc., at the pressure needed AND, the well must have the capacity for that to happen. If not, you go to a cistern supplied by the well and/or a local water delivery service. Or not, and then you don't have enough water for the property's requirements.

So IF a driller doesn't ask what peak demand gpm the property needs, find a different driller. And I suggest not letting him size or install the pump either.

 

[Upper]

Gary,since when does a driller have anything to do with what water is down there,You are full of it on this one.And if you irrigate much your static means nothing,You use your static in no time.Then you are down to WHAT the WELL produces.A good well test takes at least 12 hours to see what it produces.JJJJJJJJJese Upper

 

[NHmaster]

How dare you challenge the great one
But what do I know, I've only been doing this for thirty odd years and actually hold an installers license.
So from now on I'm gonna tell my well driller how much water I damn well expect him to get from the well or I won't pay him

 

[NHmaster]

Yes and thank you. See my post above.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Gary,since when does a driller have anything to do with what water is down there,You are full of it on this one.

I didn't say a driller has anything to do with what water is down there.

And if you irrigate much your static means nothing,You use your static in no time.

For others, he means the stored water in the well.

And others, nhmaster's installers' license is for installing pumps, not drilling wells or sizing pumps; meaning tightening fittings and doing wire crimping and shrink wrap of the pump pigtails and power cable right. Then shocking the well and putting the right well casing cap on right.

 

[NHmaster]

Once again, your ignorance is showing. If you actually had an installers license, and you don't, you would know what is required to pass the test. Funny that you don't have that license. I would think a guy like you, who is so knowledgeable of the subject would at least be able to put a pump down the hole but alas, all you can legally do is sell your stuff on the internet. Oh and just to rub a little salt in your wound. My dad was a licensed well driller for 30 odd years. Any Idea who did his pump installs

The crap has gone on long enough for me. I'm pretty much done with you and your kind. What you do, is sell stuff on the web. Fine and dandy, everyone has to make a living. You have some knowledge of your product and what you have picked up in 22 years and that's good also. Your problem is that you think you know everything there is to know and if someone else with real experience chimes in you get all pissy because ultimately what you want to do is sell your product to the folks that post here. I have spent some time going over your posts on other web sites and as I suspected, it's the same thing. You are constantly pushing your products, both Fleck and Clack, which btw are both fine products but if anyone else recommends anything else it's all crap. Totally unprofessional in my mind. It's crystal clear, why you cater to the diy crowd, it's because you sell too the diy crowd. When you have actually put the time in, down the hole so to speak, let me know. Untill then keep on selling.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Once again, your ignorance is showing. If you actually had an installers license, and you don't, you would know what is required to pass the test. Funny that you don't have that license. I would think a guy like you, who is so knowledgeable of the subject would at least be able to put a pump down the hole but alas, all you can legally do is sell your stuff on the internet. Oh and just to rub a little salt in your wound. My dad was a licensed well driller for 30 odd years. Any Idea who did his pump installs

Man I have been taking tests since the end of May of 1960. But IYO, I and anyone else doing pump work has to have a license to know what they're doing... really!

BTW, I've pulled and put many pumps down a hole as you say. I did it by hand (from like 140-150') for years until I bought a Pull-A-Pump machine, and then I pulled many more pumps as part of my business as a local pump dealer because I started to advertise the service. And OMG! ALL without any license other than a driver's license!!!

For like 30 yrs that driver's license was a commercial license. I had a union card or two, does that count? For about 8 years in the 1970s I owned and operated 4 tractor trailers (in all but two states of the lower 48), including doing all but the most major transmission, rear end and deep engine maintenance myself.

Oh, I had a private pilot's license for a long time too. I worked on high explosives and nuclear weapons for 5 years as an 18 yo teenager into my 20s. No license there either. And I carried loaded guns while doing a lot of that in 3 locations in 2 foreign countries; plus one location in the US. Worked on solid propellant rocket motors the last assignment. No licenses.

I did have a hunting license and a fishing license since I was like 12 or 14. In the late 1980s I worked 12-16 hrs/day 7 days a week in the containment building of a nuclear power plant for a six month refueling. Again no license. For a number of years in the early 1980s I was a certified welder, building specialty hopper railroad cars; no license.

I did have an insurance agents' license in the mid 1980s.

I've sold water treatment equipment and pumps and pressure tanks for the last 18 to 23 yrs, no license.

I drive a large motor home dragging a 4 door Jeep behind it with just a regular drivers license. In the 1960s I was a power company lineman, no license and once in lineman's schrool as they say in NH, I worked on up to dual conductor, 3 phase 230,000 volt distribution lines climbing 100' plus poles with nothing more than linemens' 'hooks' (strapped on yer boots) to do it. No license again!

So, talk about taking TESTS and what's in them!!

I've taken MANY tests. I (and probably many others here) say you're wrong that I needed a license to be able to pull well pumps or I couldn't know what I was doing. With your 30 yrs licensed experience and well driller daddy, you talk like an uniformed DIYer making pulling a pump up out of a hole in the yard sound like rocket science!

I have actually worked on rockets, inspected the motors for cracks etc. etc.. Then they were 'flown' as in target practice over the Gulf from FL. They were nuclear tipped rockets but we flew black powder charges instead of nuclear warheads. I have actually held like a ton (literally) of nuclear material in my hands over 5 years.

TESTS! Man I lived or died by taking and passing tests. Frankly I can not recall failing one. For MANY of those tests I had to prove an ability to do whatever BEFORE being allowed to take the test!

I'll bet all you had to do was study books and sit to take the pump installers' test, no one went out with you to a well to see your actual ability to pull a pump, now did they?

Did you get your pilots license without demonstrating your ability to fly the plane, no you didn't. Or am I wrong and you haven't been a pilot? Did you get an instrument rating without flying on instruments before and during the test? No you didn't, or at least I couldn't back in the day...

FACT, I did not nor did any other pump guy, or well driller, or plumber etc., in the state of PA (with more wells than any other state in the US until the 2000 census when TX surpassed PA's number of residential wells) have to have any type of license to work on residential wells or water pumps of any kind, anytime anywhere.

That was fact up until Speedy Eddy Rendel, a great socialist (maybe communist leaning) democrat governor got legislation passed in just the last year or two. Check that out if you have any doubts.

The crap has gone on long enough for me. I'm pretty much done with you and your kind. What you do, is sell stuff on the web. Fine and dandy, everyone has to make a living.

Yes I do sell A LOT of "stuff" online to DIYers because of my answers to poster's questions over the last 13 years. That's now after 18 yrs as a local water treatment and pump dealer, with a lot of experience, and as you say, knowledge. Hell man, even you think I'm knowledgeable and we haven't met yet (either).

I have been on the internet helping others help themselves since Jan 2 1997. Check Google Groups if there's any doubt.

I bring a lot of traffic to web site forums and whoever owns the forum benefits from that traffic. You and other anti DIYers don't. You rather fill threads with this type personal attack and tell people to call a pro or simply don't help them although you make comments to them; like the pump is DOA with no troubleshooting at all.

Your problem with me is your anti DIYer attitude and because I corrected you, with all your experience, in something you told a DIYer that was incorrect and uninformed. See above in this reply and this thread.

You have some knowledge of your product and what you have picked up in 22 years and that's good also. Your problem is that you think you know everything there is to know and if someone else with real experience chimes in you get all pissy because ultimately what you want to do is sell your product to the folks that post here.

It's crystal clear, why you cater to the diy crowd, it's because you sell too the diy crowd. When you have actually put the time in, down the hole so to speak, let me know. Untill then keep on selling.

ummm I say no one knows better than the guy that has learned to do 'it' right himself. But now it's that I don't have as much time doing 'it' as you do - down the hole!!

And you are teaching teenage schrool children!!

I'm all but 67 yrs old and have been a DIYer in many types of things from building soapbox carts at 14 to rebuilding car engines, remodeling houses, replacing roofs, building sheds and my own snow plow with a hydraulic lift out of a power steering pump etc. and installing it at 22 (then I used it and the truck to plow customers' driveways as a part time business), to doing electrical and plumbing etc..

My DIYer selling thing didn't start in 1997 when I started posting on the internet to help DIYers, I didn't sell anything until mid 2002 (5 yrs later) and I started through email after someone asked me to in email. I didn't have a web site until Sept 2003. I hadn't sold pumps etc. online from since my first and only pump in Oct 2003 until just lately. And yet I do answer a lot of pump posts and have been since 1997.

So is there any other personal info you want to discuss? I would. I'd like to know why you aren't pumpin' er plumbin' and had to give up and go teach high schrool kids. Ya know what they say, those that can't, teach...

I think it has to do with your negative attitude and unwillingness (more than a bit of inability to troubleshoot too) to help others learn how to help themselves and ya drove yourself out of business with a bad public image. What say you, and don't tell me it was this'er that and somebody else that was responsible for it and you had no choice unless you're in a wheelchair and don't have mud'n snow tires yet.

Here are a couple pics of my Pull-A-Pump; good to a 1000 lbs and 500' plus and it pulled at 50 feet/minute. My deepest was just over 500'; on Mother's Day 2005. And I usually had the homeowner there and showed them what to do if they ever wanted to pull their pump later. That attitude alone brought me a bunch of pump business and water treatment business too. And still does today, like yesterday, it took me 5 hrs on the phone but I sold 3 softeners and 2 of the guys read Terry's forums.
.

 

[NHmaster]

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