What causes 3 separate leaks to occur at the same time?

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Leo_S

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OK, I have a mystery that I need expert help solving. I'm going to tell you the whole story as it happened since there are probably clues in the story that I would not notice. Before we start, I'll tell you that I'm one of those DIY types, not a plumber. In remodeling my Seattle house, I put in new copper supply lines everywhere up to the 1" galvanized pipe that came through my slab. Starting at that galv pipe in order, I have a shut-off valve, a whole house water filter (Whirlpool Model No: WHKF‐DWHBB) with sediment cartridge, a pressure regulator (my water pressure was too high for my boiler), another shut off valve, and a combi boiler. And now to my story . . .

I was getting ready to go on a date with my wife and had just stepped out of the shower when our home alarm went off, I got a text message, and my phone started ringing at the same time. The IRIS leak detector had triggered the alarm and alerted me of a leak. I ran downstairs and slipped through two inches of water--naked--and had the shut off valve closed in about 30-45 seconds. Frantically, we wet vac'd and mopped up the water in about 45 mins. Fortunately, the cork floors (on concrete slab) look mostly unaffected. What caused the leak was the polycarbonate filter canister cracking literally in half. It didn't crack slowly and leak for a while because the leak sensor was positioned 2ft away. It cracked suddenly and opened up the flood gate, so to speak. Where the canister cracked, the plastic is 3/8" thick--really, really sturdy looking. (Link to photo of cracked filter housing: https://goo.gl/photos/i6ZmHy62EfJDX2eY6) When I was examining the filter, I could hear the sound of water moving. Thinking that was strange considering I had shut off the valve to the house, I went outside and turned off the valve at the meter. No more sound, but there was the tell-tale wet ground right outside the house where the water line comes in. I assumed I would be replacing my water line the next morning. Then, my wife and I started our date by going to Lowe's, bought a new water filter and a new garden hose to back flow our water from the neighbor's house. And then we went to the pub, ordered dinner, and had a well-deserved beer. Or two.

Next morning, I connected the hose to our neighbor's spigot. This is an unoccupied house that is really old, with plumbing that is ancient and has really low pressure. I figured I was going to be replacing my water line back to the meter, but when I dug up the line where the wet ground was, I found that there was a copper line that ended one foot from my foundation and connected to the old galvanized water line. The former homeowner replaced the main water line from the meter, but didn't pay for the four more feet it would take to bring it into the house! But, I looked at it as good news since now I could save a lot of time and expense. I removed the 1" galvanized which had ruptured badly, and plumbed from the copper into the house, and was reconnected by dinner time. (I also installed an IRIS automatic shut off valve in case I'm not home next time there's a leak.)

With the water back on at full pressure, I decided to run the dishwasher after dinner. When I opened it up and turned it on, I got an error code saying that there was water in the overflow tub. (I've had this error in the recent past, so I'm familiar with it. I was having a problem recently with the dishwasher not pulling enough gpm to activate the hot water sensor from the boiler and causing the dishwasher to use cold water. My 7 yr old boiler was working at about the right spec for min flow sensing. I replaced the water valve on the DW, but that didn't help. Then, I took the valve apart and made a tiny little cut in the rubber washer that limits pressure and reinstalled. Then there was too much pressure and the overflow tub would fill up and give me this error. I then took the other rubber grommet from my old valve, made an even more minuscule cute and the DW has worked flawlessly ever since.) The next morning, I pulled the DW out to find that the overflow tub overflowed onto the floor under my cabinets and damaged the floors. Not a tragedy since it's covered, but annoying. I mopped up the water in the overflow tub, turned on the DW, and it ran totally fine. No leaks at all. Whatever happened seems to have been an isolated event.

Finally, after getting the DW going, my wife tells me that the hot water is way too hot now. It defintely felt hotter than before the leaks occured. I go down to the combi boiler (Laars Mascot) and watch it fire up. The temperature range for the HW was reading between 56c and 51c between firing cycles. Seems like a bigger range than I remember. It does seem like the performance of the boiler has been affected, though it's harder to know since I don't have any hard data from before the leak.

So, what the heck happened? I called Seattle Public Utilities and asked them if anything could have caused a pressure spike. They told me that since their system is gravity fed, the pressure remains constant and cannot be changed dramatically. Sounds reasonable (though doesn't pressure rise inversely with pipe diameter or possibly a constriction?)

If you have a possible answer to this mystery, I would love to hear it.

Thanks in advance for hearing me out.

Leo
 

Reach4

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Get a pressure gauge. You can get one locally for under $20. They often come with a garden hose thread that you can connect to a hose spigot, a laundry spigot, or the water heater drain.

Some have a lazy/tattletale hand to record the peak, although that can be affected by vibration.

You have city water, and a water meter. If the water meter has a check valve, the water can heat up and raise the pressure to 150 PSI. Typically nothing breaks, and the temperature and pressure (T+P) valve dribbles water at that point. You might have had things that did not make it that high.

It is also possible that the city raised their water pressure for some reason. But I guess you have already checked that out. So the check valve on the water meter seems to be the more likely cause.

Clear filter housings are nice for seeing the filter. Unfortunately clear filter housings are weaker than not clear. I like the Pentek Big Blue housings for whole house use.

Get the pressure gauge.
 
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Leo_S

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Get a pressure gauge. You can get one locally for under $20. They often come with a garden hose thread that you can connect to a hose spigot, a laundry spigot, or the water heater drain.
Great idea. I'll do that today. Thanks.
 

Leo_S

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Get a pressure gauge. You can get one locally for under $20. They often come with a garden hose thread that you can connect to a hose spigot, a laundry spigot, or the water heater drain.

Some have a lazy/tattletale hand to record the peak, although that can be affected by vibration.

You have city water, and a water meter. If the water meter has a check valve, the water can heat up and raise the pressure to 150 PSI. Typically nothing breaks, and the temperature and pressure (T+P) valve dribbles water at that point. You might have had things that did not make it that high.

It is also possible that the city raised their water pressure for some reason. But I guess you have already checked that out. So the check valve on the water meter seems to be the more likely cause.

Clear filter housings are nice for seeing the filter. Unfortunately clear filter housings are weaker than not clear. I like the Pentek Big Blue housings for whole house use.

Get the pressure gauge.

I'll still get the pressure gauge, but shouldn't the Watts pressure regulator that I have keep things in line? It's max 300 psi and the setting range is 25-75 psi. The pressure regulator does come after the whole house filter, so that wouldn't have prevented a spike affecting the filter. Do these regulators help in a spike or are they only good for maintaining a constant pressure? Thanks
 

Reach4

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I'll still get the pressure gauge, but shouldn't the Watts pressure regulator that I have keep things in line? It's max 300 psi and the setting range is 25-75 psi. The pressure regulator does come after the whole house filter, so that wouldn't have prevented a spike affecting the filter. Do these regulators help in a spike or are they only good for maintaining a constant pressure? Thanks
You have a pressure regulator for the whole house? Sorry. I did not pick up on that. I thought that was for your hydronic boiler system -- like knocking down the city water pressure to 15 PSI.

..... well first of all, why do you have a whole pressure regulator if the city water pressure stays under 80 PSI? If the city water stays under 80, you should just have a regulator for the boiler.

If you have a pressure regulator, most of those do not pass water the other way. You need a thermal expansion tank to absorb the water from the heating. That tank should normally be empty of water. If you have a tank, and if it has water in it, the tank probably failed and needs to be replaced. There are PRVs that have a "bypass" feature that will let higher house pressure go backwards. That could allow you to not have an expansion tank in some cases.
 

Leo_S

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You have a pressure regulator for the whole house? Sorry. I did not pick up on that. I thought that was for your hydronic boiler system -- like knocking down the city water pressure to 15 PSI.

..... well first of all, why do you have a whole pressure regulator if the city water pressure stays under 80 PSI? If the city water stays under 80, you should just have a regulator for the boiler.

If you have a pressure regulator, most of those do not pass water the other way. You need a thermal expansion tank to absorb the water from the heating. That tank should normally be empty of water. If you have a tank, and if it has water in it, the tank probably failed and needs to be replaced. There are PRVs that have a "bypass" feature that will let higher house pressure go backwards. That could allow you to not have an expansion tank in some cases.
I actually have two pressure regulators. The one that I mentioned right after the WH filter and a 12-15 psi regulator that feeds the hydronic system. I seem to remember my water pressure being higher than 80 psi when I did this all years ago, and so I bought the regulator for that reason. I thought I remember it being over 100 psi. Probably overkill and dumb. The expansion tank on the hydronic system feels like it's empty.
 

Leo_S

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I actually have two pressure regulators. The one that I mentioned right after the WH filter and a 12-15 psi regulator that feeds the hydronic system. I seem to remember my water pressure being higher than 80 psi when I did this all years ago, and so I bought the regulator for that reason. I thought I remember it being over 100 psi. Probably overkill and dumb. The expansion tank on the hydronic system feels like it's empty.
Is there somewhere I could place a pressure gauge to get a reading of the city's pressure? Or maybe a neighbor's spigot who doesn't have a pressure regulator? Is it reasonable to ask the city to come out and test my meter?
 

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The expansion tank on the hydronic system feels like it's empty.
You need a new expansion tank in the house. The pressure gauge will show that. Expect pressure to peak after you use a lot of hot water, and then stop using water totally.

Ask the water department how high the pressure that they deliver to you might go. If they say that they don't deliver more than 80 PSI to you, I would get rid of the PRV. Too bad you don't have a place to hook your pressure gauge before the PRV.
 

Leo_S

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You need a new expansion tank in the house. The pressure gauge will show that. Expect pressure to peak after you use a lot of hot water, and then stop using water totally.

Ask the water department how high the pressure that they deliver to you might go. If they say that they don't deliver more than 80 PSI to you, I would get rid of the PRV. Too bad you don't have a place to hook your pressure gauge before the PRV.
Thanks, Reach4. That does make sense about the expansion tank, especially with me just getting out of the shower at the time of failure. The Laars Mascot HT330 I have comes with an integrated expansion tank rated at handling 26 gallons of system water. That is, if the expansion hasn't failed . . . . I'm off to pick up a pressure gauge.
 

Leo_S

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Thanks, Reach4. That does make sense about the expansion tank, especially with me just getting out of the shower at the time of failure. The Laars Mascot HT330 I have comes with an integrated expansion tank rated at handling 26 gallons of system water. That is, if the expansion hasn't failed . . . . I'm off to pick up a pressure gauge.
I've had the pressure gauge connected to a hose bib since yesterday evening. It's registering about 72 psi with a max at 80 psi after several long showers and a bath. Is there any reason to put the gauge in a different place such as on my hot water line? Does my combi boiler have some kind of check valve that would allow pressure to build in the domestic HW supply?

I did realize that the expansion vessel inside the boiler is for the hydronic side of the system and not on the domestic as I had thought. That means there is no expansion tank on my domestic hot water. I'm assuming that's what caused the pressure spike, but it's weird that I wasn't able to create a significant pressure change overnight. If there were a check valve on the DHW in the boiler, this would mean the pressure gauge wouldn't see the pressure building, right? What size expansion tank should I plan to install?

Thanks again for your help!
 

Reach4

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I've had the pressure gauge connected to a hose bib since yesterday evening. It's registering about 72 psi with a max at 80 psi after several long showers and a bath. Is there any reason to put the gauge in a different place such as on my hot water line?
No need to move the gauge. I would keep it in place for a good while to monitor.

If you want to adjust the PRV, do that with a faucet dribbling some water.
 

Leo_S

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No need to move the gauge. I would keep it in place for a good while to monitor.

If you want to adjust the PRV, do that with a faucet dribbling some water.
Reach4, I just realized I don't have a PRV on my DHW or anywhere on my domestic system, just on the hydronic side. I'm assuming that's a bad thing.
 

Reach4

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Reach4, I just realized I don't have a PRV on my DHW or anywhere on my domestic system, just on the hydronic side. I'm assuming that's a bad thing.
I think that is a very good thing. Maybe no thermal expansion tank needed, unless your gauge shows that you do. If the water meter has a check valve, you would probably need a thermal expansion valve. In that case, the pressure gauge will show.

The bad thing is there is not an explanation for the triple failure coincidence. If you see 90 psi or more on your meter (officially 80), figure to get a thermal expansion tank. If you need the thermal expansion tank, that explains it. But even 150 should not have blown up that filter typically IMO. I would replace it with a more durable unit. If they have a non-clear sump replacement available, you could consider that rather than getting a whole new filter.
 
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Leo_S

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I think that is a very good thing. Maybe no thermal expansion tank needed, unless your gauge shows that you do. If the water meter has a check valve, you would probably need a thermal expansion valve. In that case, the pressure gauge will show.

The bad thing is there is not an explanation for the triple failure coincidence. If you see 90 psi or more on your meter (officially 80), figure to get a thermal expansion tank. If you need the thermal expansion tank, that explains it. But even 150 should not have blown up that filter typically IMO. I would replace it with a more durable unit. If they have a non-clear sump replacement available, you could consider that rather than getting a whole new filter.
Well, I guess I'll continue to monitor my pressure gauge to see if there are any changes. I really do appreciate all of your insight.
 

Jadnashua

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While a PRV generally creates a closed system, many water utility companies are installing a check valve on their supply lines which also creates a closed system, and that requires an expansion tank. Where I live, regardless, you are required to have one in your home.

Water pressure does NOT change with pipe diameter, but volume, and pressure drop during flow (not statically, when nothing's being used) does. Think soda straw verses fire hose...they each have the same pressure, but the volume available varies radically. If you have a significant drop in pressure when you start to use water in your home, the supply line(s) are typically undersized for both the volume and the distance involved.
 
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