Well pump cycle limits?

[Dennis Hopper]

So I have a submersible pump, about 450 ft down. I have an ws252 wellxtrol tank. Pressure switch on and off 40-60. So when watering the lawn the pump cycles on for about five minutes and cycles off for about 1 minute. This goes on as long as the sprinklers are running. However I just install a garden bed and used on of the zones to run this. No other sprinklers are on this zone. When the garden bed zone comes on, the pump cycle says on for the whole time which is 20 minutes. The tank can never get up to pressure. Is there something I need to do with this zone to get it to cycle like the others?

 

[Reach4]

No other sprinklers are on this zone. When the garden bed zone comes on, the pump cycle says on for the whole time which is 20 minutes. The tank can never get up to pressure. Is there something I need to do with this zone to get it to cycle like the others?

Yes, but it would be better to change the other zones! Increase the flow in the other zones to match the flow in the garden zone. Seriously.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Dennis Hopper]

Yes, but it would be better to change the other zones! Increase the flow in the other zones to match the flow in the garden zone. Seriously.

The other zones seem to be fine. I worry that the pump is running to long without getting up to pressure cut off.

 

[Reach4]

The other zones seem to be fine. I worry that the pump is running to long without getting up to pressure cut off.

Change your thinking. It's good that this came up.

 

[Bannerman]

Well pumps are designed to run continuously 24/7/365. It is the On/Off/On cycling that is damaging.

You may wish to consider a Cycle Stop Valve to reduce cycling. A CSV will change how the pump will deliver water. As long as 1 gpm or more is being consumed, the CSV will adjust the pump's output to match the flow rate of the water being used.

Valveman, a moderator on this forum, is the developer and manufacturer of the CSV devices.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/

 

[Valveman]

Thanks guys. Yeah that is one of the counter intuitive things about pumps I talk about all the time. Pumps like to run. Cycling on and off is what kills them. There are 1440 minutes in a day, so on 5 minutes and off 1 minutes would be 240 cycles per day. 1HP and smaller pumps can usually survive past the warranty date cycling up to 300 times per day. Larger pumps can only survive 100 cycles per day, and the fewer the cycles the better. I have one pump that hasn't shut off in over 18 years, and it will last much longer that way.

Like has been said, either increase the GPM in all the sprinkler zones so the pump does not cycle, or use a Cycle Stop Valve so the pump can't cycle no matter how small the sprinkler zone.

 

[Dennis Hopper]

Thanks guys. Yeah that is one of the counter intuitive things about pumps I talk about all the time. Pumps like to run. Cycling on and off is what kills them. There are 1440 minutes in a day, so on 5 minutes and off 1 minutes would be 240 cycles per day. 1HP and smaller pumps can usually survive past the warranty date cycling up to 300 times per day. Larger pumps can only survive 100 cycles per day, and the fewer the cycles the better. I have one pump that hasn't shut off in over 18 years, and it will last much longer that way.

Like has been said, either increase the GPM in all the sprinkler zones so the pump does not cycle, or use a Cycle Stop Valve so the pump can't cycle no matter how small the sprinkler zone.

So based on the parameters I mentioned in my first post what CSV would I need. Watching the video it seems I'd need a 50psi CSV. I'm also about yo change out the whole system valve, pressure switch, new whole house filter, Gauge, etc because I had a small leak, so it would be great timing. Where in the line would I install this? I have a 1" main coming into the valve/switch/pressure tank and it reduces down to 3/4" into the house and hot water heater. I have 1" running to 10 zones of sprinklers. Also if I connect two zones into one, would that help? Thanks

 

[Valveman]

After getting your hopes up a CSV may not even be possible for you with a pump at 450'. Would need to know the horsepower and gpm series of the pump and the static water level. These can be figured out with a bucket and an amp meter if you don't know.

 

[Dennis Hopper]

After getting your hopes up a CSV may not even be possible for you with a pump at 450'. Would need to know the horsepower and gpm series of the pump and the static water level. These can be figured out with a bucket and an amp meter if you don't know.

I'm pretty sure that info is on the electrical box on the wall next to the expansion tank. I'll take a look later.

 

[Dennis Hopper]

So my pump is model# 10WA15S4-#w230 10GPM 17STG stainless 1-1/2hp 3 wire 230v pump. The well depth and pump depth was all scratched out on the label. Installed in 2012 outside of that I have no more information. Suggestions and can I use a CSV?

 

[TVL]

If it were me and IF the sprinklers you're using have interchangeable nozzles, I would simply replace the existing nozzles with a little larger nozzle. This will allow you to determine the nozzle size required to keep the pump running continuously and at a suitable pressure. This is what I did with my 14 zone irrigation system. When the irrigation system calls for the pump to come on each day, the pump never shuts off again until the last zone has completed ................... which is about 6 hours later. Each zone runs somewhere between 40 to 50 PSI.

Hope this is helpful!

 

[Dennis Hopper]

If it were me and IF the sprinklers you're using have interchangeable nozzles, I would simply replace the existing nozzles with a little larger nozzle. This will allow you to determine the nozzle size required to keep the pump running continuously and at a suitable pressure. This is what I did with my 14 zone irrigation system. When the irrigation system calls for the pump to come on each day, the pump never shuts off again until the last zone has completed ................... which is about 6 hours later. Each zone runs somewhere between 40 to 50 PSI.

Hope this is helpful!

Yeah, I think I'll try converting two zones into one first and see how it functions. I hate the idea of replacing all the sprinkler heads as over the years I've gotten about 5 different head types. I've replaced a few with better heads but didn't know that this would be an issue until now....

 

[Dennis Hopper]

Thanks guys. Yeah that is one of the counter intuitive things about pumps I talk about all the time. Pumps like to run. Cycling on and off is what kills them. There are 1440 minutes in a day, so on 5 minutes and off 1 minutes would be 240 cycles per day. 1HP and smaller pumps can usually survive past the warranty date cycling up to 300 times per day. Larger pumps can only survive 100 cycles per day, and the fewer the cycles the better. I have one pump that hasn't shut off in over 18 years, and it will last much longer that way.

Like has been said, either increase the GPM in all the sprinkler zones so the pump does not cycle, or use a Cycle Stop Valve so the pump can't cycle no matter how small the sprinkler zone.

So is there something else I can use to do the same thing as a CSV in my situation? Just wanted to extend the pump life as much as possible if I can. I hooked up two zones to one on my sprinklers, will be trying it tomorrow to see if it can keep the pump cycle on. Thanks for the answers, you've been really helpful. I live in CO so about every year I have to replace several sprinkler heads, so now I'll be looking for the ones that halve high volumes....

 

[Valveman]

So my pump is model# 10WA15S4-#w230 10GPM 17STG stainless 1-1/2hp 3 wire 230v pump. The well depth and pump depth was all scratched out on the label. Installed in 2012 outside of that I have no more information. Suggestions and can I use a CSV?

That pump can build 560' of head which is the same as 242 PSI. To be able to set a CSV at 50 PSI the pump should build no more than 175 PSI. This means the static water level would need to be 155' or deeper for a single CSV1A to work.

However, we have system like this where the static level is 5' and the inlet pressure to the CSV will be 242 PSI. In these cases we use two of the CSV1A valves in series. The first one sees the 242 PSI coming in and is set at 150 PSI. The second CSV sees the 150 PSI from the first CSV and reduces it to the 50 PSI needed for the house and sprinklers. This way there is never more than 125 PSI across either CSV1A and they will last a long time. You just need well pipe that can handle the 242 PSI, which most well pipe can easily do.

Other than that you just need to double up on the number of sprinklers, or increase the sprinkler nozzle size. It is important without a CSV that the output of the sprinklers be the same as the output of the pump to eliminate cycling. However, you should also realize that when doing this you are using every drop the pump can supply, so if you turn on a shower while the sprinklers are running you will have to wiggle around to get wet.

This doesn't happen when using a CSV as the sprinklers do not have to max out the pump, and there is water left when needed in the house.

 

[Dennis Hopper]

That pump can build 560' of head which is the same as 242 PSI. To be able to set a CSV at 50 PSI the pump should build no more than 175 PSI. This means the static water level would need to be 155' or deeper for a single CSV1A to work.

However, we have system like this where the static level is 5' and the inlet pressure to the CSV will be 242 PSI. In these cases we use two of the CSV1A valves in series. The first one sees the 242 PSI coming in and is set at 150 PSI. The second CSV sees the 150 PSI from the first CSV and reduces it to the 50 PSI needed for the house and sprinklers. This way there is never more than 125 PSI across either CSV1A and they will last a long time. You just need well pipe that can handle the 242 PSI, which most well pipe can easily do.

Other than that you just need to double up on the number of sprinklers, or increase the sprinkler nozzle size. It is important without a CSV that the output of the sprinklers be the same as the output of the pump to eliminate cycling. However, you should also realize that when doing this you are using every drop the pump can supply, so if you turn on a shower while the sprinklers are running you will have to wiggle around to get wet.

This doesn't happen when using a CSV as the sprinklers do not have to max out the pump, and there is water left when needed in the house.

Thanks for that information, very helpful and will have to consider. I took all of the sprinklers and went from 8 zones to 4 zones, doubling up to have 2 zones run at the same time. Two of the zones running, the pump stays around 50psi and the other 2 have it running at 40psi, maybe even a little lower. I ran it last night and usually always run it when everyone is in bed. I'm going to play around more with the sprinklers and zones to see if I can get around 45psi while running. The pump stayed on the whole time, never having to cycle, so I'm happy with that at least. learning more everyday....lol. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Valveman]

That is the way we always did it before Cycle Stop Valves. But when you have the sprinklers set to run at 40 to 45 PSI, when/if someone turns on a shower or other water use at the same time, the pressure drops lower than 40-45, which makes shower pressure weak.

 

[Ballvalve]

Thanks for that information, very helpful and will have to consider. I took all of the sprinklers and went from 8 zones to 4 zones, doubling up to have 2 zones run at the same time. Two of the zones running, the pump stays around 50psi and the other 2 have it running at 40psi, maybe even a little lower. I ran it last night and usually always run it when everyone is in bed. I'm going to play around more with the sprinklers and zones to see if I can get around 45psi while running. The pump stayed on the whole time, never having to cycle, so I'm happy with that at least. learning more everyday....lol. Thanks for the advice.

So that is your CSV - just keep the pump running with zones and flow. Although your previous cycle of 5 minutes on and 1 off was not excessive either.