Well pipe pressure ratings??

[scillo]

Im in a jam and need to know what the burst pressure is for 1" black poly pipe with about a 1-1/4 OD... im installing a new pressure gauge, gpm flow gauge, and globe valve to my well pipe. I need to choke down the water flow but i need to know my pipe ratings which r not on the pipe anywhere. Is it 100psi(i pray not n dont believe so), 160psi, 200psi.... i need the nominal working ratings and burst rating..

 

[Valveman]

100# pipe is rare. Even that would be good to 200# as the burst pressure of pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure. It is more a question of how much pressure your pump can build, and more than 150 PSI would also be rare.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[scillo]

100# pipe is rare. Even that would be good to 200# as the burst pressure of pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure. It is more a question of how much pressure your pump can build, and more than 150 PSI would also be rare.

I think they pump will be ok. The well driller tried pulling a fast one on me by telling me i needed a larger pump than i needed plus other materials to swap out old pump. Wanted 6 grand. The pump he claimed was 3 grand supposedly at 300 feet. So i bought it n installed it all by my lonesome saving 50% on the job. Well the pump was less than 150 feet n the pump was almost 3 times less powerfull. So im getting a flow rate of about 30gpm according to goulds flow chart for pumps depth n pipe I.D... cycling is insane!!!! 25 gallon 40/60 tank cycle is about 8 seconds!!!! Im not putting a frequency controller on it like so other quick fux guys... service department recommends not exceeding 18% of max pump pressure of 300psi which comes to 256psi. So id like to get the gpm down as much as possible without killing the pump n bursting the pipe. ill have a pressure gauge inline before anything else. If i can figure out what the pressure is at the head as i choke it down using a simple conversion but i cant find a simple calculator online. The pump is strong!!!!!! I may look into rebuilding the old one n putting a new impeller on it n the try selling new pump online as slightly used... u just cant trust some contractors..

 

[Valveman]

300 PSI max sounds like a lot. Do you have a pump model number?

 

[scillo]

300 PSI max sounds like a lot. Do you have a pump model number?

If i pull it back out of the ground. Its the strongest 1.5 hp pump they make. Over 3 thousand dollars. Their own service departnment plus supplier confirmed pressure ratings before i even bought it. Now we r getting a bit off topic.. all i need to know is what the 1" black poly pipe w/ 1-1/4 O.D. nominal rating and burts rating are... but being able to look at my new pressure gauge assemby n do a quick conversion to figure out pressure at the head would be nice to. If i must i will work out the formulas myself. I cant believe nobody has a quick conversion formula calculator online. Almost every other major phase of construction has easy formula calculators.. shame. Im to old to learn computers.

 

[Reach4]

You could look at a Dole valve to reduce flow. Rated backpressure is limited -- maybe 160 psi or some other pressure of that magnitude. A 1/2 hp or 3/4 HP 7gpm pump is a nice size for most houses with the pump around 150 ft down and the static water at maybe 70 ft.

I happened to have that handy. One that showed 1/2 and 3/4 hp would have been better. But that 7gpm 1/2 HP pump looks good if your static level is high enough. The fact that flow would decrease as the water fell toward the pump could be an advantage IMO.

 

[Valveman]

Well, 2.31' equals 1 PSI. But I don't know what that is going to help with. The gauge before the ball valve will just show you how deep the pump thinks it is. If I knew the model of the pump, how deep it is to water, and the flow rate in GPM, I could tell you what the pressure gauge would read. Knowing the pump model, if you also give me a max pump pressure from the gauge, I could tell you how deep it is to water. Never heard that 18% of max pressure statement before. Has all to do with the minimum flow rate, not the maximum possible pressure.

"strongest 1.5HP they make (pressure wise anyway) would be a 5 GPM series. That pump will make more like 360 PSI and would been to be choked back to 311 PSI to keep from pumping more than 3 GPM.

 

[scillo]

Well, 2.31' equals 1 PSI. But I don't know what that is going to help with. The gauge before the ball valve will just show you how deep the pump thinks it is. If I knew the model of the pump, how deep it is to water, and the flow rate in GPM, I could tell you what the pressure gauge would read. Knowing the pump model, if you also give me a max pump pressure from the gauge, I could tell you how deep it is to water. Never heard that 18% of max pressure statement before. Has all to do with the minimum flow rate, not the maximum possible pressure.

"strongest 1.5HP they make (pressure wise anyway) would be a 5 GPM series. That pump will make more like 360 PSI and would been to be choked back to 311 PSI to keep from pumping more than 3 GPM.

I dont know what to tell u bud... im a retired structural and static mechanical engineer of just over 30 years.. and goulds most certainly sells pumps that push more than 5gpm... considering the one i just installed is pushing 28gpm as of right now... im sorry but i do not need insight into my pump or its its design, my valve assembly, my by-bass, my pre-filter operation, my live media filtration, or any other part of my house that i designed and built myself, other than the old pressure tank that came with the foundation (that is soon to be replace with a new larger tank and an tandom air assit that i again designed inorder to get water an incredibly far distance away to an old barn... so ill try once more n say all i need is the nominal working pressure rating and burst pressure rating of the 30 year old 1" black poly pipe with an O.D. of 1-1/4"... now my hands dont work like they use to and ive never been good at typing. It took me about 5-10 minutes to respond to this. So please if u cannot simply supply me with the information just tell me u dont know and maybe someone else will see my question and give me the answer im looking for.. im not looking to have a discussion.. i just need help with what i thought was a simple question that could be answered by someone who knows of the pipe im speaking and has worked with it enough to know its manufacturers stress ratings.

 

[scillo]

You could look at a Dole valve to reduce flow. Rated backpressure is limited -- maybe 160 psi or some other pressure of that magnitude. A 1/2 hp or 3/4 HP 7gpm pump is a nice size for most houses with the pump around 150 ft down and the static water at maybe 70 ft.

I happened to have that handy. One that showed 1/2 and 3/4 hp would have been better. But that 7gpm 1/2 HP pump looks good if your static level is high enough. The fact that flow would decrease as the water fell toward the pump could be an advantage IMO.

A dole valve is not going to accomplish the task im set out to accomplish. Dole valves have a set restriction which i agree is very useful in some situations. I how ever am trying to dial into an exact working pressure at the head. Read the beginning couple replies n u may understand better without me typing it over again.. im just looking for a simple reply to what i thought was agoing to be an easily answered question. I think i may be on the wrong plumbing forum website.

 

[Valveman]

You are on the right forum. You just don't understand what we are trying to say. A 5 GPM pump is the "strongest pump" Goulds makes (PRESSURE WISE) as I said (360 PSI). But if your pump can do 28 GPM , then it is most likely a 25 GPM series, which can only build 121 PSI at complete deadhead, and makes the pressure ratting of the pipe much less important than you are trying to make it. Plus if pushing more GPM's is what you consider "stronger", the 25 GPM series pump you have is no where close to the strongest they make either.

I did answer your question when I said it could not be less than 100 PSI rated, and even that would have a burst pressure of over 200 PSI. You could use some help on other things like not putting in a larger tank that will make your pressure worse, and you should not need any kind of air assist to push water a long distance as the well pump builds enough pressure to do that. I am sorry you are getting a lot more help than you wanted, but we could see you needed it whether you wanted it or not.

If you would just tell us what you are trying to accomplish by restricting the pump we could probably make your life a lot easier.

1" PE should have an OD of 1.315", and with an ID of 1.062 would be 200 PSI rated.

 

[scillo]

So i realized it would be much easier to just call a different well driller around. I did just that and the owner Frank that i just by luck got on the phone new exactly the pipe information i was looking for. And funny enough he also understood exactly what im doing with basically an identical description of what i told u but verbally.. he doesnt believe ill be able to do what i want to get cycling even under 30 seconds at desired gpm before i reach max head which according to yet another human being ive spoke to, the first being a goulds supplier all have informed me 300 psi is correct. And i got all that information with a 5 or 10 minute phone call.. u r correct about the 200 psi rating. Though it was like pulling teeth to provide that plainly. It is what i was just told today. I was told to be careful because its such an old pipe that they do lose some strength but its minimal unless its direct burial and being shifted around alot seasonally. All in all i cant say it was a pleasure or a time saver using this site. I thought i would say a few final words anyways mainly toward this valve man.. n buddy i have no idea who u talked to about the pumps max pressure rating but its obviously not anyone directly related to the sale or manufacturing of the pump. Phone calls that i personnally made. And u have no clue on the tandom air assit i designed because other than the one im currently building there isnt another inexistance. Maybe other system out there that do a similar job but considering i engineered the damn thing ill politely laugh, also because u rattle this crap off knowing nothing of my property landscape, distance, elevation change, temperatures... makes me giggle knowing what i know with 8 years of higher education, half a dozen certifactions related to my field most from the academy of sciences which is unprecidented with setting all most all manufacturing standards around the world be it residential building construction to aggricultural saftey. This includes all the ANSI standards here in the U.S.. ive been contracted twice in my life to engineer government facilities, from simple truss analyisis, to operational layouts, to designing underground boiler power stations capable of remote lock out (that part is a tad confindential, no harm done though, i think). So trust me bud, i need no help what so ever from a guy like u concerning my plumbing system. All i wanted was a simple pipe rating for the dimensions and materials provided. U then proceeded to turn it into a lengthy discussion about nothing i asked about... ive gone back, just out of curiosity cuz its late n im a night owl, to look at other threads and it seems to be a common trait here. Other guys saying just what i did... that they r getting off topic. U might want to try just giving a simple answer to a simple question next time and then voice any concerns u may have if that person is at all interested in discussing it more. Ure seem like the type of guy i would give a punch list to or directions to a job and then u would question everything n turn it into a big ordeal... fired... thats what u would be. Its called the k.i.s.s. method for a reason. Keep. it. simple. stupid. So best of luck to u there... i wont be returning...

 

[GReynolds929]

It's OK everybody he's an engineer, he doesn't need our help. Please go about your business.

 

[Valveman]

I know engineers hate being told they don't know what they are talking about, especially when they don't know what they are talking about. No way a 1.5HP that can pump 28 GPM can build 300 PSI. I didn't say anything that isn't off a Goulds pump curve and well understood. Lol! Best of luck "bud"!

 

[scillo]

So i realized it would be much easier to just call a different well driller around. I did just that and the owner Frank that i just by luck got on the phone new exactly the pipe information i was looking for. And funny enough he also understood exactly what im doing with basically an identical description of what i told u but verbally.. he doesnt believe ill be able to do what i want to get cycling even under 30 seconds at desired gpm before i reach max head which according to yet another human being ive spoke to, the first being a goulds supplier all have informed me 300 psi is correct. And i got all that information with a 5 or 10 minute phone call.. u r correct about the 200 psi rating. Though it was like pulling teeth to provide that plainly. It is what i was just told today. I was told to be careful because its such an old pipe that they do lose some strength but its minimal unless its direct burial and being shifted around alot seasonally. All in all i cant say it was a pleasure or a time saver using this site. I thought i would say a few final words anyways mainly toward this valve man.. n buddy i have no idea who u talked to about the pumps max pressure rating but its obviously not anyone directly related to the sale or manufacturing of the pump. Phone calls that i personnally made. And u have no clue on the tandom air assit i designed because other than the one im currently building there isnt another inexistance. Maybe other system out there that do a similar job but considering i engineered the damn thing ill politely laugh, also because u rattle this crap off knowing nothing of my property landscape, distance, elevation change, temperatures... makes me giggle knowing what i know with 8 years of higher education, half a dozen certifactions related to my field most from the academy of sciences which is unprecidented with setting all most all manufacturing standards around the world be it residential building construction to aggricultural saftey. This includes all the ANSI standards here in the U.S.. ive been contracted twice in my life to engineer government facilities, from simple truss analyisis, to operational layouts, to designing underground boiler power stations capable of remote lock out (that part is a tad confindential, no harm done though, i think). So trust me bud, i need no help what so ever from a guy like u concerning my plumbing system. All i wanted was a simple pipe rating for the dimensions and materials provided. U then proceeded to turn it into a lengthy discussion about nothing i asked about... ive gone back, just out of curiosity cuz its late n im a night owl, to look at other threads and it seems to be a common trait here. Other guys saying just what i did... that they r getting off topic. U might want to try just giving a simple answer to a simple question next time and then voice any concerns u may have if that person is at all interested in discussing it more. Ure seem like the type of guy i would give a punch list to or directions to a job and then u would question everything n turn it into a big ordeal... fired... thats what u would be. Its called the k.i.s.s. method for a reason. Keep. it. simple. stupid. So best of luck to u there... i wont be returning...

N fyi my pump would never be able to push the water from my well 250 feet up n out to the far end of my home then exit my home n travel some 2,000 yards thru the terrain to where i need it to be. Like i said u have no clue of what i designed n what its capable of doing. A guy like u thinks he knows everything.. i hated people like that when i was in the field. I mean what do u think im some idiot thats going to pump air into my supply lines with a pancake compressor. And the bigger pressure tank i was talking about is needed in my home to work properly with my new system which implements a stand by 20hp four stroke engine in a seperate 15,000 gallon water storage building(water shed is what oldtimers before me would have called it). My home n water shed will have a special valve assemblies which i spent almost 2,000 dollars having manufactured, i still havent recieved yet. Of my own design my house will be by passed letting the pump run when the water shed calls for water and my home system is fully charged. The water shed valve is also one of the switches.. id explain the entire thing thoroughly but... trade secrects.. and honestly i dont like u. All this from one simple pipe rating... blows my mind...

 

[scillo]

It's OK everybody he's an engineer, he doesn't need our help. Please go about your business.

retired. And yes please do... go about ur business.

 

[GReynolds929]

N fyi my pump would never be able to push the water from my well 250 feet up n out to the far end of my home then exit my home n travel some 2,000 yards thru the terrain to where i need it to be. Like i said u have no clue of what i designed n what its capable of doing. A guy like u thinks he knows everything.. i hated people like that when i was in the field. I mean what do u think im some idiot thats going to pump air into my supply lines with a pancake compressor. And the bigger pressure tank i was talking about is needed in my home to work properly with my new system which implements a stand by 20hp four stroke engine in a seperate 15,000 gallon water storage building(water shed is what oldtimers before me would have called it). My home n water shed will have a special valve assemblies which i spent almost 2,000 dollars having manufactured, i still havent recieved yet. Of my own design my house will be by passed letting the pump run when the water shed calls for water and my home system is fully charged. The water shed valve is also one of the switches.. id explain the entire thing thoroughly but... trade secrects.. and honestly i dont like u. All this from one simple pipe rating... blows my mind...

Why are you even here besides thinking you know everything and wanting to wave it around like it's something special. We all can always learn something new no matter how much we think we know. That's what is great about forums like this. Just because you spent your career in front of a computer doesn't mean you know more than a layman in the field who does it on a daily basis. It's usually the opposite. Nobody cares how big your tank is or how much you spent on one of a kind irreplaceable fittings. You came with a question, we requested more info and attempted to answer, you didn't like the answer and decided since you're an ENGINEER you are superior and know more than anybody on here and proceed to attempt to show off and intimidate those who don't agree. What a joke.

 

[Chucky_ott]

Nobody cares how big your tank is

Was that an analogy to something else ?

 

[Valveman]

Lol! Here we go again. Over the last 30+ years this has happened to me so many times I have written articles and made videos about how embarrassing it is for “some” engineers to be so incredible wrong. To me, when someone brags of their credentials as an “engineer”, they are saying, “I already know everything there is to know and nobody should be questioning me in any way”. Instead of doing the research and learning something new as any good engineer would, they just get REAL ANGRY and double down protecting the Rube Goldburg contraptions they are so proud of. However, there are many good engineers who are still able to learn new things. Here are comments from a couple.

We have been misled by someone who, as a fellow mechanical engineer, should have researched this for himself before publishing such false information and so should have known better!

I really don't care either way about the CSV BUT I am an engineer and can say that the CSV guy who sells this valve has 30+ years of success. From a manufacturing standpoint, that is a very successful outcome for any company.

I do not believe I have ever mentioned my credentials, as I earned my electrical engineering degree when I was 17 and still in high school, and got several patents when I was in my early 30’s. I have been grilled by every engineer for every major pump manufacturer for over 30 years now and have never lost an argument. A lot of them stomp off mad as well, because they cannot prove me wrong. An engineering degree doesn’t impress me in the least. I understand a degree is just a ticket that says you are capable of learning new things, not that you already know everything there is to know. Experience teaches things you can never learn in school. I am an old man now, and with close to a million pump systems under my belt, I think I have learned a few things. Lol!

I have seen this many times in the past. All I have to do is tell some engineers, as nicely as I know how, that they are incorrect, and they will just blow a gasket. Some get so red-faced mad they will never be able to learn anything new again and will never admit they were wrong. No brag just fact, but when it comes to pumps, at my age I may be the most knowledgeable person still alive. Lol! But I would never claim to know all there is to know, as that would make me a bad engineer.

I hate that we got off on the wrong foot, as I really am trying to help you. I just have a bad habit of trying to help people who don’t think they need any help. But you have said several things that let me know I could help. For instance, if your pump can really build 300 PSI, then it would have no problem working with a 130/150 pressure switch setting that would not only lift the 250’ elevation you talk about but give you an additional 30 to 50 PSI pressure to work with at the top of the hill. I also have a little 1/3HP pump that supplies my house through over 7200’ of pipe and very rough terrain. Done things like this many many times.

Funny thing is, you are mad at me for just asking what you are trying to accomplish (and we still don’t know) and I haven’t even mentioned a Cycle Stop Valve. The CSV is so counter intuitive it can make some engineers COMPLETELY lose their minds. It is sad, but almost comical to those of us who can see it. When someone doesn't understand and makes me feel bad for trying to help, I just go read a few of the hundreds of reviews I get from people who really know me and appreciate the help.

Reviews – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

cyclestopvalves.com

 

[scillo]

Why are you even here besides thinking you know everything and wanting to wave it around like it's something special. We all can always learn something new no matter how much we think we know. That's what is great about forums like this. Just because you spent your career in front of a computer doesn't mean you know more than a layman in the field who does it on a daily basis. It's usually the opposite. Nobody cares how big your tank is or how much you spent on one of a kind irreplaceable fittings. You came with a question, we requested more info and attempted to answer, you didn't like the answer and decided since you're an ENGINEER you are superior and know more than anybody on here and proceed to attempt to show off and intimidate those who don't agree. What a joke.

Actually u r the joke... ive spent thirty years in the field u twit!!! Ive hired n fired more guys like u than i care to remember. U r right u can always learn something. But the fact that i asked a simple question n got dragged through a pointless discussion rather than a simple answer like 200 psi nominal working pressure. This would have gone much better. But u carry on n on about things i dont need to know nor did i care to discuss or need help with. Try supplying someone with the exact information they r asking for before carrying on with ur own questions or rant. All that will do is piss people off like me who dont need ur help. Just a simple damn pipe rating. U two guys, valve man especially do not communicate professionally. Its like a highschool classroom with u to i can see clearly. But its ok guys.. i called another actual professional like myself and got my answer a d some in 10 minutes rather than this pointless exchange between u two idiots.. n if i have to state my qualification to get u to shut the hell up and just answer the damn question. Then so be it. It seemed to work though i got help elsewhere first. Sad... on ur part.. n im sorry u get defensive by me mentioning those said qualifications. I might look into some therapy for that superiority complex u have there. N im sorry i obviously have a far superior education than u n im guessing a much greater work experience(in the field, dooshbag). I would have been better off emailing that tom silva guy on that tv show this old house than speak to u waste of spaces... anyhoo good luck wasting someone elses time n trying to make them feel bad about there accomplishments cuz u have none. Sincerley yours, the engineer(retired)

 

[Valveman]

N im sorry i obviously have a far superior education than u n im guessing a much greater work experience(in the field, dooshbag). Sincerley yours, the engineer(retired)

Lol! You would be "guessing" wrong on both of those counts. What I don't have is anywhere near as inflated opinion of myself as you. We could supply the exact answer to your question, but the question didn't and still doesn't make any sense. You started out stating the pipe is "about 1 1/4" OD", when it is actually 1 .315". An engineer should know better. "Garbage in, garbage out." We were just trying to get something from you that wasn't garbage to replay to. Oh, and just to further irritate you, here is how I would set up a water system for 130/150 pressure setting and have a long lasting system that doesn't cycle itself to death. Except at that pressure I would use an 86 gallon size tank instead of the 20. But what do I know? I have only done this a few hundred thousand times. Lol!