Water softener woes, need advice

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smitty32

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Hello, having water softener problems and don't know what to do next. A quick, but long history - please bear with me.
Original softener that came with the house was a no name, separate bottle and brine tank.
Worked great for 10-12 years until the motor quit on the head. Replaced the unit with a GE Smartwater from the big box store. This one also worked great for about 9 years until the control panel quit working. I think the board corroded and the buttons no longer worked. Since it had been good, I replaced it with another GE Smartwater from the big box store. From day one, it put air in the lines after a recharge. Nice clean soft water, but lots of air. GE support was horrible, no help. Worked on the air check in the brine tank to make sure it was sealing, rechecked all connections, finally replaced the check/float assembly. No help, still got air. After fooling with it for a year, I got fed up and replaced it with a Water Boss 380 from another big box store. That was bigger mistake. The Water Boss, from day one, put rusty brown water into the system after a regeneration. Had to flush 20-30 gallons or more before it cleared up. Water was soft and clear after the flushing and stayed that way until the next regeneration cycle where it made a rusty mess again and had to be flushed. And, it also put air in the lines just like the GE. Very frustrated now, spent almost a year trying to resolve it. Nothing seemed to help. So, another big mistake, went to Lowes and bought a AO Smith softener. Did not realize until the top was off that the Water Boss and the AO Smith were the exact same unit in a different housing. After installing it, it works exactly like the Water Boss. Large amount of rusty water after the recharge, and air in the lines. Nice soft water, though. It's obvious that just stupidly throwing money at the problem isn't helping at all. Nothing in the water supply system has changed between the first and last softeners. There is a string type rust and sediment filter in the line before the softener and we use Morton regular and sometimes rust remover pellets. The filter has a clear housing, and watching while the regeneration is going I can see NO air bubbles coming in thru the supply line. Any help is appreciated.
 

Reach4

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Weird. One unusual way you could get air is if the well water level sucked all of the way to the well pump intake during the regeneration. That seems unlikely since only about 2 gallons per minute will be drawn for maybe 10 minutes and again for another 5 to 10 minutes later in the cycle.

To check for this unusual condition, you could watch the water pressure gauge during brine draw and later during the fast rinse.
 

smitty32

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Weird. One unusual way you could get air is if the well water level sucked all of the way to the well pump intake during the regeneration. That seems unlikely since only about 2 gallons per minute will be drawn for maybe 10 minutes and again for another 5 to 10 minutes later in the cycle.

To check for this unusual condition, you could watch the water pressure gauge during brine draw and later during the fast rinse.

Have lots of water in the well, large bladder type holding tank with switch set at 40 - 60. I've watched the pressure during a regen cycle and it never drops below the 40 psi, pump brings it back to 60 within a couple of minutes. No leaks in the air bladder. If it's coming from the well I'm not seeing it, but then there's a whole lot I don't see.
 

DetRack

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Is there a clear filter before the softener where you may check if the air comes from the well, or a faucet for garden use? Your description of 60 psi being restored "within minutes" sounds like a well falling dry. Theflow from the brinjng is so low the pump should keep up with it and not need minutes to restore it.
 

Reach4

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Is there a clear filter before the softener where you may check if the air comes from the well, or a faucet for garden use? Your description of 60 psi being restored "within minutes" sounds like a well falling dry. Theflow from the brinjng is so low the pump should keep up with it and not need minutes to restore it.
He has a 40/60 pressure switch, so falling to 40 psi before rising is normal.

A softener will not develop a vacuum except on the brine line. However smitty32 has paid attention to that, by first changing out an air check valve, and then replacing the whole softener. He could have had a leak in the hose to the brine air check valve, but that all got changed out with the new softener. It is a strange mystery.

He has an all-in-one (cabinet) type softener, probably for space-saving reasons. But those work with the same principles as the softener with the separate brine tank.
 

DetRack

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Sure, the pressure will fall with a mechanical switch. Now, even if a pump delivers only 5gpm, it should not take long to refill the bladder.

The observations:

air
Brown residue (iron sulfate or oxide)
Slow refill

While it's not enough for a conclusion, the observations suggest a simple test of the well performance.
 

smitty32

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Sure, the pressure will fall with a mechanical switch. Now, even if a pump delivers only 5gpm, it should not take long to refill the bladder.

The observations:

air
Brown residue (iron sulfate or oxide)
Slow refill

While it's not enough for a conclusion, the observations suggest a simple test of the well performance.

Ok, I just checked and the holding tank is a well saver 86 gallon. Drawdown at 40-60 is 23.2 gallons. Mine is actually cycling at about 41-59 psi. Open water spigot until pump comes on at 41, close spigot, and it refills the tank and shuts off at 59 psi in 1 minute and 40 seconds. Not sure how to interpret that.
 

Reach4

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Ok, I just checked and the holding tank is a well saver 86 gallon.
That is called a pressure tank. Your pump is pumping over 10 gpm. Softener uses less than 2.4 gpm during its max use during regen (backwash).

Mystery remains. A series of bad air check valves or vacuum leaks seems improbable, but I have nothing better.
 
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