Water Softener/Filter System Needed

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ditttohead

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Correct. It is important to make some minor programming changes to the system, other than that it is typically an easy switch. I would set the system efficiently and you will be just fine. A typical system in your application properly sized and designed will only use 1/4-1/2 bag of potassium chloride per month. The less water you use, the less salt... maybe look at your water consumption and see where you can lower it. I have installed automated faucets, ultra low flow toilets, high efficiency dish washer, laundry etc... and we are down to less than 20 Gallons per person per day excluding irrigation.
 

dzimm27

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Am looking at methods of connecting things up, would appreciate some input. I am going to have a three valve bypass put in on the interior of the garage wall after they run the loop off of the water main outside the garage. Talked to a softener installer who said he liked using CPVC and my normal plumber who I am assuming from prior work prefers PEX. Outside piping would be insulated but the interior stuff would be on an exterior garage wall. We rarely get below freezing but it does happen several days a year. Is there a general preference for best material to use here?

Also for the drain line, have gone down the rabbit hole on that lately as well. Seems the common thing is to tie into a drain vent pipe in the attic which generally is not up to code, yet is very common practice. I have a laundry room washer drain standpipe inside a garage wall with a clean out below it. Since I am looking at a filter and a softener I would have two drain pipes to run over there. Could tie into the vent pipe for that draining the attic, cut into the wall to tie into the stand pipe behind the washer, try to come down the interior of the wall into the washer water/drain box behind the washer and drain into that along with the washer (but even with a mr drain type device I am not sure I can fit all three drains there and avoid splashing out), or have seen an interesting contraption posted on here somewhere with a sanitary tee put onto the drain clean out with a new standpipe built from it that the softener and filter could drain into with an air gap device. I don’t love the idea of something protruding from the wall at the location of the clean out, but might be the best solution. Any words of wisdom here?
 

ditttohead

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The softener and carbon tank drian lines would be plumbed together, no need to run individual drains. The systems regenerate at different times. Post a picture of you cleanout. While code varies, it is common practice to remove the plug and install a unionized p-trap with a standpipe. The p-trap must be unionized so the cleanout remains easily serviceable. Check codes for your area. For freezing potential, I have seen some amazing things with PEX. One of the guys on this site posted them destroying pex, heating it up a bit and it was almost good as new. ( I would not recommend using the piece they were playing with). Pex has a unique ability to stretch, flex, kink, crush etc all without failing. CPVC is an excellent material choice but if frozen it will crack.n
 

dzimm27

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The softener and carbon tank drian lines would be plumbed together, no need to run individual drains. The systems regenerate at different times. Post a picture of you cleanout. While code varies, it is common practice to remove the plug and install a unionized p-trap with a standpipe. The p-trap must be unionized so the cleanout remains easily serviceable. Check codes for your area. For freezing potential, I have seen some amazing things with PEX. One of the guys on this site posted them destroying pex, heating it up a bit and it was almost good as new. ( I would not recommend using the piece they were playing with). Pex has a unique ability to stretch, flex, kink, crush etc all without failing. CPVC is an excellent material choice but if frozen it will crack.n

PEX does seems to be touted for handling cold well and while the connectors do seem to be susceptible to cracking when freezing, probably a still better than CPVC from what you comment here. I know PVC pipe but was just not familiar with CPVC (at least by name). Here are some pics of what I have. This is on the wall opposite where the softener/filter will go, maybe 3 feet further towards the rear of the garage than the intended install location. Drain line would need to come up to the ceiling, run across the ceiling to the opposite wall, run to the right about 3 feet and drop down to the drain location to hit that cleanout. Cleanout had two exposed sizes, not versed enough to know which is which.
Outside cleanout measurement: https://imgur.com/UCMdYqn
Inside cleanout measurement: https://imgur.com/yesm5O8
General view: https://imgur.com/7bq18tT

This is the image I found here on the forum somewhere (now only have the image link): https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/drain-jpg.16624/
Bulky but looks well done and probably hits all compliance points.

Glad to know about piping them together in one run. No "backflow" concerns at all for a run that goes up the wall and across the ceiling with a shared drain? With it being in my garage freezing really should not be an issue, but I have never had a water pipe running along an exterior wall of the garage either. There will certainly be some remaining drain water in the pipe on the way up the wall with the softener and depending on slope (hopefully none) some in the run across the ceiling after it backwashes or rinses.
 

Reach4

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PEX A, such as AquaPEX is said to be most resistant to freeze damage.
 

dzimm27

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I think PEX sounds like the best bet for the drain, but am wondering about connections. The installer manual for the 5810 SXT says it has the following drain connections:

3⁄4" elbow QC BSP or 1" straight QC BSP

Is this an alternate part I need if I want the 1”? Or is the port in the valve 1” and it comes with a downsizing 3/4” elbow installed? What is QC BSP?
 

Reach4

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What is QC BSP?
You will not use BSP in Texas. You will use NTP if you use a threaded pipe connection. And those Falcon stainless connectors are nice for making connections. They make corrugated stainless hoses that have the Fleck connections right on them.

I did not follow your pictures regarding a drain cleanout. Were those related to the softener?
 

dzimm27

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You will not use BSP in Texas. You will use NTP if you use a threaded pipe connection. And those Falcon stainless connectors are nice for making connections. They make corrugated stainless hoses that have the Fleck connections right on them.

I did not follow your pictures regarding a drain cleanout. Were those related to the softener?

Ah, well I think the manual I got the QC BSP from was the installer manual from the 5810SXT that I could only find on a Pentair Europe site. I guess I should have expected the terms to be a bit off. You would think the measurements in meters and liters regarding drain line sizing/length would have tipped me off, but instead I just figured that's how Pentair rates things. Ha!

I have settled on a 10x54 softener and 10x54 catalytic carbon filter with 5810SXT valves. Going to use KCl rather than NaCl for plant purposes and am going to put in an RO filter under the kitchen sink.

I am getting the Falcon stainless connectors for the water main in/water main out of the softener and filter. The drain lines I figure I will have my plumber hook on to somehow and was trying to figure out what kind of hose/connector to use. I am leaning towards PEX other than not knowing how flexible the drain line needs to be near the valve. Also I have read instructions indicating that on initial setup I need to run water through until it "clears". In opaque tubing I may have a hard time telling when it is clear unless that 1" airgap lets me see enough flying by.

The picture of the cleanout were regarding a location that I could dig out the cleanout, put in a sanitary tee, put the cleanout cap on that and then off the curved part of the tee create a new standpipe with an airgap to drain into, like the image I linked to. That would seem to be the "most code" solution but plan to run it and other options by my plumber when I have him out.
 

Reach4

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Ah, well I think the manual I got the QC BSP from was the installer manual from the 5810SXT that I could only find on a Pentair Europe site.
See http://waterpurification.pentair.co.../en/44019-5810-5812sxt-rev-g-au17-digital.pdf has what you want.

The drain lines I figure I will have my plumber hook on to somehow and was trying to figure out what kind of hose/connector to use. I am leaning towards PEX other than not knowing how flexible the drain line needs to be near the valve. Also I have read instructions indicating that on initial setup I need to run water through until it "clears". In opaque tubing I may have a hard time telling when it is clear unless that 1" airgap lets me see enough flying by.
Don't worry about that. When you turn on the system, fill slowly initially. For initial backwashing, time is fine. You don't need to watch.

I am leaning towards PEX other than not knowing how flexible the drain line needs to be near the valve. Also I have read instructions indicating that on initial setup I need to run water through until it "clears". In opaque tubing I may have a hard time telling when it is clear unless that 1" airgap lets me see enough flying by.
Translucent poly (not PEX) and clear vinyl are both pretty common. The drain hose for a 10 ft or so drain is very non-critical. Black would be fine.

If this thing is going outdoors, special considerations are needed to protect this stuff from the sun.
 

Reach4

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Hi, I leave in chandler (Arizona).
Your post would be better on its own thread. Discussing your softener on this thread would confuse things. I see you already have one or two threads with the same topic. I suggest you edit your post on this thread to just be the word "delete".
 

dzimm27

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This is the one I was looking at. Seems more complete as per installation instruction (drain line allowable rise/sizing/etc) and startup. They dont seem to publish this freely, probably just for installers:
[/QUOTE]
https://www.pentairaquaeurope.com/s...terals/installer_manual_fleck_5810-sxt_en.pdf

Don't worry about that. When you turn on the system, fill slowly initially. For initial backwashing, time is fine. You don't need to watch.

Translucent poly (not PEX) and clear vinyl are both pretty common. The drain hose for a 10 ft or so drain is very non-critical. Black would be fine.

If this thing is going outdoors, special considerations are needed to protect this stuff from the sun.

Roger on the initial fill/backwashing. I think I am going to be _slightly_ over 10'. Just measured the garage and to run across the ceiling and down the other wall to the cleanout location is about 27 1/3'. Ceiling is 8.5' tall on each side of the garage and am going with 10"x54" tanks plus the height of the valve. Ignoring the height of the valve and assuming the cleanout is extended with a stand pipe to the same height as the valve (not sure that is needed), that would add 4' of rise and 4' of fall on each wall, so 35 1/3', roughly. That PDF I linked to above indicates if unit is 6.1-12.2m from drain to use 1 1/4" tubing. If I use 1 1/4" tubing and I need to drain into something 2x as large or 2", that rules out the vent pipe which (in addition to likely not being code) is 1 1/2" PVC. I am thinking getting in to the standpipe for the washer drain or building off of the washer drain cleanout is my best/only ticket. Hoping to be completely prepared to line it out for the plumber rather than have confusion and back and forth.
 

dzimm27

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Hi, I leave in chandler (Arizona). The hardness of our water is 21 grains per gallon. The highest iron content in our City is less than 0.3 PPM and the pH range is 7.2 to 8.2. we are looking to buy a water softener system for our house (family of three, 3000 ft2 with three bathrooms). would you please let me know which of the following sytems would be better option for us?
- Iron Pro 2 Combination water softener iron filter Fleck 5600SXT digital metered valve 64,000 grain
- Fleck 5600SXT 64,000 Grain Water Softener Digital SXT Metered Whole House System
Thanks
Yeah buddy, you will get better help in your own thread. I am capable of creating enough confusion here myself. Best of luck to you though!
 

Reach4

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That PDF I linked to above indicates if unit is 6.1-12.2m from drain to use 1 1/4" tubing.
From page 42 of your linked pdf:
The drain line must be a minimum of 12.7 mm (½") in diameter. Use 19 mm (¾") pipe if the backwash flow rate is greater than 26.5 lpm (7 gpm) or the pipe length is greater than 6 m (19 ft 8 in).
Your drain flow rate will be 2.4 GPM. 1/2 inch is good. I was not saying 10 ft as an upper limit, but just a guess of what yours might be. 1.25 inch would be odd. 1/2 ID is typically about 5/8 OD. Wait until you see the barbed fitting, and match that. You are worrying about that drain line too much.

Would the washer standpipe be handy for you? Is that in a box, or is it a pipe sticking up?
 

dzimm27

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From page 42 of your linked pdf:
The drain line must be a minimum of 12.7 mm (½") in diameter. Use 19 mm (¾") pipe if the backwash flow rate is greater than 26.5 lpm (7 gpm) or the pipe length is greater than 6 m (19 ft 8 in).
Your drain flow rate will be 2.4 GPM. 1/2 inch is good. I was not saying 10 ft as an upper limit, but just a guess of what yours might be. 1.25 inch would be odd. 1/2 ID is typically about 5/8 OD. Wait until you see the barbed fitting, and match that. You are worrying about that drain line too much.

Would the washer standpipe be handy for you? Is that in a box, or is it a pipe sticking up?

Interesting. What you found on page 42, since I will be over 19ft of drain line would suggest 3/4”.

What I was reading on page 49 would suggest since I am over 6m I should use 1 1/4”.

Which is right? I think Dittohead mentioned 1 1/4”?

The washer standpipe is in a box in the wall. I could punch through the wall to get to it or use the clean out org to build off of.
 

Reach4

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What I was reading on page 49 would suggest since I am over 6m I should use 1 1/4”.
It says...
If the backwash flow rate exceeds 91 lpm or if the unit is located 6.1-12.2 m from the drain, use 31.75 mm (1¼") tubing. Use appropriate fittings to connect the 31.75 mm (1¼") tubing to the 25.4 mm (1") drain connection on the valve.​
Wow. There is is. Weird. Now I know you did not dream it. I would go by the other PDF, and if you feel you want to be extra-sure, go 3/4 ID. Note that the backwashing rate on a filter is much greater than for a softener. You can use flex, or you could go PVC, or CPVC -- whichever worked best for you. You could use PEX, but unless you already had it, ordinary polyethylene would be quite good.

Which is right? I think Dittohead mentioned 1 1/4”?
He was talking about water supply and not drain line.

The washer standpipe is in a box in the wall. I could punch through the wall to get to it or use the clean out org to build off of.
See https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/good-softener-air-gap.69342/ Also look up VA4 airgap. There is another air gap called GAP-IT where you can bring the softener drain through the top of a new hole in the top of the box rather than through the front opening on the box.
 

dzimm27

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Thanks for clearing that up and the suggestion Reach4!

Have got my plumber coming by next week to finalize the install plan for the water main run into the garage, bypass setup, etc. In the meantime I wanted to nail down startup procedures and programming so I can perhaps get those in place beforehand.

With my water report showing 7-10 gpg hardness (city water lab said my location would be on the high end of that) and remembering a guy we had out to the house having a test showing it at right about 8gpg, no iron in the water, plus our plans to use potassium chloride rather than sodium chloride - can you guys (Reach4/Dittohead) give me what you would suggest as programming for my 5810 SXT valves on my 1.5 cuft softener and 1.5 cuft catalytic carbon filter? I presume I will cause no damage by powering them up and running through programming settings without water flowing through them since these are just valves and not pumps - but wanted to verify all the same. Ok to do so?
 

Reach4

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System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 8 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.25 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 1.5 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 10.0 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day; 160.0 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Est days/regen; 22.5 ; presuming days each use reserve capacity

Fleck 5810SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5810 ; Valve type
RF = dF2b ; Downflow, Double Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 36.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 10 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = cr ; Cr = base reserve on recent experience
DO = 28 ; Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 5 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
B2 = 4 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 10 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 16 for NaCl salt, 18 for KCl salt ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter
RE = OFF ; Relay
VR = OFF ; ?
==============
Catalytic carbon may have DO=7 to control the backwash timing on that.
 

dzimm27

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Posting this mainly for reference and so I can compare to recommended settings. Just checked both units. Damn they are loud when they turn on. Is any cycle change just as noisy? Maybe less so when filled with water!

For reference we have:
10gpg hardness (no iron, manganese as per city water lab)
Estimated usage average range over 3 years 149-163 gal (trending up, so 165gal is perhaps a good mark)
Lowest monthly average daily usage over 3 years: 105 gal per day
Highest monthly average daily usage over 3 years: 219 gal per day (likely pool filling or grass seeding)

Settings as shipped:

Softener 5810 SXT 1.5 cuft

Piston = Standard
BLFC = 0.25 gpm
Injector = 1

DF=GAL
VT= 5810
DF=dF1b
CT=Fd
C=24.0
H=20
RS=rc
RC=0
DO=14
RT=2:00
BW=10
BD=60
RR=10
BF=12
FM=t1.2
RE=OFF
VR=OFF

Catalytic carbon filter 5810 SXT 1.5 cuft
Piston = Standard

DF=GAL
VT=5810
RF=Fltr
CT=tc
DO=3
RT=12:00
BW=10
RR=10
RE=OFF
 

Reach4

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Other than the single backwash vs double backwash, dF2b, are there any differences that stand out to you? C=24.0 would be more for a 1 cubic ft system, and that is the one that stands out to me.

OK, RT=12:00 does strike me as odd also. Maybe you mis-copied that one?

Even with water in it, they will startle you if you are near. I hope the units will not be near your bedroom.
 
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