Water softener. A problem I cannot solve and money hasn't fixed

[Watersoftenerhelp]

6" well casing, 78 feet deep well (100GPM capacity) constant pressure goulds 2HP controller, 33GPM well pump.

Water softener: 3CU, autotrol 268 with 760 timer.

Well pump supplies water for my landscaping.

I have been facing a problem since i've purchased this home. One of my biggest problems is when a faucet or anything not connected to the softener is running. The water softener senses flow and the icon for water appears on the screen. Which seems to pop on and off and wastes unnecessary gallons of water (with my geothermal running it wastes about 1 gallon every few minutes). I ended up having a spring check valve installed and that seemed to solve my problems for the winter time.

Summer time is now upon me. I have turned my sprinkler system on and time to water my beautiful grass. Everytime the zones would change i would have an build of pressure and my system would backflow. Causing extreme water hammer. I mean my house seemed like it was going to fall apart.

I had the check valve removed from the water softener so i was able to water my yard.

Now my issue is, every time the zones change or is running. I can hear water sloshing back and fourth in my water softener pipes. This is causing major hissing and backflowing inside the water softener head. Which sometimes vibrates the flapper valves very loudly.

When some of the bigger zones change, my pressure gauge will be at a steady 68PSI to dropping to 50PSI and when it changes to another zone, sometimes it will end up going back up to the 70PSI range. All my sprinklers still work great and my house pressure is great.

Is this just happening due to fluctuation with my water pressure? Causing the backflowing and hissing inside my controller head?
/
How do I fix this, was my softener incorrectly plumbed? Is it due to a constant pressure well pump and backflowing is kind've expected? Should I remove drywell where my softener is installed to see if it was hooked up too close to a cross section?

 

[Reach4]

If removing the check valve at the softener corrected your symptoms from the point of view of the softener, how about restoring the check valve. But tee off to a small pressure tank before the check valve. So instead of the rest of your plumbing having to buffer the pressure fluctuations, let the small pressure tank do that.

I might look at a WX-101 , 2 Gal WELL-X-TROL in-line tank, for the add-on. Set the precharge to a little below what the pressure drops to, even during events.

It could be that just increasing the pressure tank size on your pump system would solve this too (with the check valve restored). It seems weird that a check valve caused your plumbing system before the check valve to have fits. I think your well pump system is not behaving well with the current setup. Maybe have a talk with the Goulds pump system support people.

OK, one more idea: check the precharge on the Goulds system pressure tank. Maybe dropping that a bit would cure the symptom with the check valve back in place.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

You should not have any backflow to the well pump. But those variable speed type systems are notorious for causing check valves to fail. Many companies make certain check valves especially for variable speed type pumps. If adding a check valve to the softener solved the back flow problem, then the check valve in the well is probably not holding and needs to be replaced.

Might also try switching from one zone to another without any delay between them.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

The pressure tank I have is a small 4.8 gallon one, so i was curious if that's just too small and causing all of my issues with not enough bladder for expansion. I could bleed down the pressure inside the tank and get a larger tank to see if this solves the issue. At this point I would probably need to use some uni support to support the pipes for a larger and heavier tank.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

You should not have any backflow to the well pump. But those variable speed type systems are notorious for causing check valves to fail. Many companies make certain check valves especially for variable speed type pumps. If adding a check valve to the softener solved the back flow problem, then the check valve in the well is probably not holding and needs to be replaced.

Might also try switching from one zone to another without any delay between them.

I have the sprinklers switching between with no delay. I also wonder if my problem is my small expansion tank. Could the drop and increase of dramatic pressure with a small expansion tank not dampening cause sloshing around?

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

According to goulds tank sizing recommendations the tank size i have installed is recommended for a 23GPM system. The next tank size up they recommend is a 8.2 gallon tank for a 41GPM system. The pump i have is a 33GPM. I wonder if all my issues are just caused by too small of a pressure tank?

 

[Valveman]

No the tank is not too small, but the bladder could be busted. That would cause problems.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

No the tank is not too small, but the bladder could be busted. That would cause problems.

Unfortunately the tank is not busted. I am setting the tank pre pressure 20PSI below like gould recommends. I am still having the same issues. Could my water softener lines just not be plumbed to be using the expansion tank?

 

[Reach4]

I presume you put in a thermal expansion tank upstream of the check valve. I did not go back to your old thread to confirm that.

What are the pressure max and min normal excursions on your water pressure?

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

I presume you put in a thermal expansion tank upstream of the check valve. I did not go back to your old thread to confirm that.

What are the pressure max and min normal excursions on your water pressure?

I put the check valve the only place I was able to install one. I installed it in the coming line right before the softener.

Max pressure is 78 PSI and min is 70. (recently thought it was lower but old gauge was incorrect)


I set the bladder pressure to 48PSI.

I can still hear my flapper valves inside my water softener vibrate. I can also hear sloshing inside of it when the expansion tank is being used. I feel like i've done all avenues. I feel like what's happening is the bladder is always contracting and expanding due to the high and low pressure drops and the well is trying to fill up the bladder and sequentially is constantly going up and down until it can level itself out and recover from the high demand of volume and pressure.

Does that make any sense at all?

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

My geothermal just turned on, which is not connected to the water softener at all. The flapper valve inside the softener head just vibrated. I'm really just at a complete and total loss. Anyone have anything else I can attempt to do, or how to diagnose the problem? Any other tests, recommendations, solution. I can make a video, anthing. I am definitely not a professional!

 

[Reach4]

1. A water heater expands water when it heats. If you use a check valve coming into the softener, you need a thermal expansion tank. This is unrelated to any symptoms that I can think of other than the pressure getting too high when the water heats. Since you have not mentioned a thermal expansion tank on this thread, I will presume you don't have one. On the other hand, you have not said you don't have one. Why does your irrigation system work better with no check valve in place? If you had a thermal expansion tank, I would have suspected that the thermal expansion tank was helping the lack of enough pressure tank. But if you don't have one, why did removing the check valve help the irrigation system + Goulds system from going nuts?

2. I suspect a bigger pressure tank would help, but I really think you should try talking with Goulds. Would there be a problem with a tank that is significantly bigger? A pressure tank helps keep pressure changes down.

The flapper valve inside the softener head just vibrated.

How do you detect that? I understood the flow meter getting excited by pressure changes, and the check valve made sense as a cure for that.

I am definitely not a professional!

Nor am I.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

I have attached a photo of the pressure tank. This is one of the tanks I have in my system (the other one the cold side of the water heater) This tank is located on the main water line coming into my house right under the water softener. I unfortunately dont have a diagram of how its plumbed, so everyone is spitballing it with me here.

I know its the flapper valve making all the noise because I pulled the cover off the water softener head and I can see when all this is happening the flaps move, specifically valve number 2 and 3. Its definitely a lot of pressure inside of the softener head. I took the softener head apart and made sure none of the valves were damaged or anything and cleaned it and reassembled it.

I really have no idea if the valve helped remedy the situation as i wasn't using all the GPM of the pump as i am when my lawn is on. I' bought this house a year ago. last year the tank that was previously in there was completely dead. I had found out the bladder was burst in the winter time when I wasn't using the sprinklers.

I know there is someone on here that can tell me what to do next.

The pressure tank is located on the main water line into my house.


c

 

[Reach4]

OK.

(the other one the cold side of the water heater)

So now I theorize that the thermal expansion tank at the WH may have been helping the irrigation+Goulds system when it was connected through the softener, and the check valve blocked that path.

That increases my feeling/hope that an aux pressure tank or a larger main pressure tank could help your irrigation+Goulds system. With the check valve then back in place, the water moving to and from the thermal expansion tank at the WH would not be activating your flow meter on the softener.

If that thermal expansion tank at the WH was connected before the softener, then that phantom water flow sensed by the softener may never have occurred.

So to reiterate, I suspect the thermal expansion tank at the WH is supplementing the main pressure tank via the softener. That water flow back and forth would be causing phantom water use.

So why are you so lucky? I think the unique situation is at least partly that your precharge in the thermal tank is lower than your normal water pressure. Normally you set the precharge higher. That would cause water to travel back and forth if there is no check valve.

Did you have the thermal expansion tank before you put in the check valve?

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

OK.

So now I theorize that the thermal expansion tank at the WH may have been helping the irrigation+Goulds system when it was connected through the softener, and the check valve blocked that path.

That increases my feeling/hope that an aux pressure tank or a larger main pressure tank could help your irrigation+Goulds system. With the check valve then back in place, the water moving to and from the thermal expansion tank at the WH would not be activating your flow meter on the softener.

If that thermal expansion tank at the WH was connected before the softener, then that phantom water flow sensed by the softener may never have occurred.

So to reiterate, I suspect the thermal expansion tank at the WH is supplementing the main pressure tank via the softener. That water flow back and forth would be causing phantom water use.

So why are you so lucky? I think the unique situation is at least partly that your precharge in the thermal tank is lower than your normal water pressure. Normally you set the precharge higher. That would cause water to travel back and forth if there is no check valve.

Did you have the thermal expansion tank before you put in the check valve?

Yes, I had 2 thermal expansion tanks before I put the check valve in. I had a plumber come over yesterday and remove the check valve from the piping. Thinking that would fix my issues (of the water hammer) Which it did fix the water hammer but not the real problem.


This is from Goulds installation instructions "Set the tank pressure, while tank is empty of water, to 20 psi below the desired system pressure setting. Ex. for a 50 psi system pressure, charge the tank to 30 psi"

Which I set both of my expansion tanks to. Do you think I could have air in my lines? I have turned my well off multiple times.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

we have had phantom movement through a autotrol
unit before and it was because of the thermal expansion tank on the
water heater... expansion and contraction pushed the water back and forth
through the unit....... I dont care for Autotrols any more due to all the cams
that wear out

I would probably just install 2 spring loaded check valves on
both sides of your water softener going into and out of the water softener unit

This would certainly keep movement through the water softener unit down to a minimum..
it might kick down your flow in the house but its worth the risk just to see if this solves the issue

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

we have had phantom movement through a autotrol
unit before and it was because of the thermal expansion tank on the
water heater... expansion and contraction pushed the water back and forth
through the unit....... I dont care for Autotrols any more due to all the cams
that wear out

I would probably just install 2 spring loaded check valves on
both sides of your water softener going into and out of the water softener unit

This would certainly keep movement through the water softener unit down to a minimum..
it might kick down your flow in the house but its worth the risk just to see if this solves the issue

I just had a plumber over here yesterday and I had him remove the entire 3" pipe with the check valve in it and sweat me an entire new pipe in because I didnt want it to be sleeved.

Do you know if I have any other option.

Is there a better softener head or something I can get? Is this just going to be a problem with any softener I get?

 

[Reach4]

Which I set both of my expansion tanks to.

I would set any thermal expansion tanks, on the hot-water heater side of the softener, to 78 to 80 PSI air precharge. Precharge is always set with the water pressure at zero.

For the tank at the Goulds controller, set the precharge according to the Goulds instructions.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

I just had a plumber over here yesterday and I had him remove the entire 3" pipe with the check valve in it and sweat me an entire new pipe in because I didnt want it to be sleeved.

Do you know if I have any other option.

Is there a better softener head or something I can get? Is this just going to be a problem with any softener I get?

The autotrol is a good older style unit , it is now outdated by the newer more trouble free Clack valve
I would guess that the meter will turn in any brand so you are probably stuck ..... If water goes back and forth through any control it will totally throw off the metering and you will probably go through a lot more salt

I dont know what you mean when you state --- you removed the entire 3 inch pipe with the check valve in it
because you did not want it to be sleeved??? What does that mean??

Installing 2 spring loaded checks on both sides of the water softener is a very simple task and
would certainly stop any movement through the control....

You had a plumber out there, what did he think you should have done??

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

The autotrol is a good older style unit , it is now outdated by the newer more trouble free Clack valve
I would guess that the meter will turn in any brand so you are probably stuck ..... If water goes back and forth through any control it will totally throw off the metering and you will probably go through a lot more salt

I dont know what you mean when you state --- you removed the entire 3 inch pipe with the check valve in it
because you did not want it to be sleeved??? What does that mean??

Installing 2 spring loaded checks on both sides of the water softener is a very simple task and
would certainly stop any movement through the control....

You had a plumber out there, what did he think you should have done??

I previously had a check valve already installed in the system. I only had one installed before the the water softener. It was plumbed into the incoming water. I had him come over and remove that check valve. I circled in the picture where I had him put a check valve in. I had him remove it and replace the entire section of pipe.

That check valve caused severe water hammer in my house. That's why I had him remove it. Wouldn't putting an additional check valve on the other side have increased the water hammer? I mean my house sounded like it was going to explode with the check valve in.

I had the plumber come over and get my geothermal off of the water softener and removed the check valve he installed a few months ago. I didn't even test it before he left.