Tankless-luke warm shower

Discussion in 'Tankless Water Heater Forum' started by wt, Jan 30, 2009.

  1. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    So the dip**** hasn't come forth with the answers yet?:mad:

    May I refer you again to posts #127-129
     
  2. Ladiesman271

    Ladiesman271 Homeowner

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    Let me see now. I have 1 full bath and two half baths. How do I supply two showers running at the same time?

    Do I really have to give you that answer? The answer is obvious!






    Simple. Turn on the tap. Press the On button. Turn the cycle knob? You can easily take a shower and use all the hot water taps at the fixtures at the same time.

    Heck even if I did a hot water wash at "the same time" that I wanted to take a shower, by the time I got into the shower the washer tub would be full of hot water. Needless to say, who does a "hot" water wash and rinse these days. I prefer to spend my money in different way that pissing it down the drain!



    Costs to do a load of laundry. The electric rate used in these calculations is 1/2 of what I pay ($.206 per kWh) and the gas is light a bit also ($1.63 per therm).

    http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/laundry.html
     
  3. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Dang fruit flies buzzin around...:mad:
    Can you hear them?

    [​IMG]

    Laddy Boy, once again I direct you to comments you need to nake on posts #127-129 in this thread.
     
  4. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

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    Then the last part of this Q & A post I made Straight Talk About "On-Demand Tankless Water Heaters by A.O. Smith applies to you and to others that fall under this part. I put the part I am taling about in bold.

    Q. What are the best applications for on-demand tankless water heaters? In other words, when is tankless the best choice?

    A. This is another multi-part answer…

    1. Residential New Construction. Installation of tankless heaters is less of a problem here, since the necessary venting, gas lines and other tankless requirements can be built into the plans for the home.
    2. However, because most builders want to keep the cost of their homes as low as possible, the initial price of tankless water heaters will be a significant obstacle. We don’t see on-demand tankless as a saleable proposition for residential new construction, except for high-end custom homes, where the builder and/or homeowner can handle the expense of installing multiple tankless units.
    3. Residential “Repair and Replacementâ€. We’ve already discussed the high cost of purchasing and installing an on-demand tankless water heater to replace an existing tank-type heater. In our view, most homeowners have been and will continue to be satisfied with the performance of a tank-type water heater. It is likely that the “downstream†claims of tankless manufacturers will persuade most consumers to pay extra for a technology that is not really in tune with American lifestyles.
    4. Residential Remodeling. This is the primary niche for on-demand tankless water heaters, and particularly for the A.O. Smith ProStar model XT19400. ProStar should be positioned as a point-of-use water heater serving low to medium demand applications or individual fixtures, or as a supplemental hot water source to the home’s primary tank-type water heater for room additions and other major kitchen or bath remodeling projects that significantly increase hot water demand. ProStar should only be considered as a “whole house†water heating option for very small homes or apartments with low hot water demand.
     
  5. Ladiesman271

    Ladiesman271 Homeowner

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    Yes, but according to the plumbing instructor you are ignoring "the code".

    By the way, the description of a "very small home" has changed over the years. My modest size home 3 bedroom home has 2,400 sq ft of space including the first floor level garage. The McMansions that they have built in recent years are nice, but one needs a nice income to afford them. I wonder how many of those home "owners" are underwater (or worse)?
     
  6. gregsauls

    gregsauls Homeowner

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    This would also be AO Smiths way of saying "we don't want to sell them, go somewhere else".... and I would !
     
  7. sedin26

    sedin26 New Member

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    Ladiesman,

    I'm not against tankless heaters (I may go tankless myself next time due to severe space restrictions) but I do have a question on your numbers.

    You mentioned that your system is rated at 2.09 GPM output at, I believe, 75 degree temp rise and you have also stated that you can run multiple showers at the same time.

    That doesn't seem to add up and I'm wondering how you achieve this? Given that a low flow showerhead is rated at a higher GPM that the unit, how can you run two at once?

    The only thing I can think of is that each shower uses some cold and some hot so you might be able to squeak by with two running but it still doesn't seem quite right, particularly for those who might like hot showers.

    Also, how do you find it works when you have someone in the shower and a sink calls for hot water on full? (filling sink to do dishes, for example) Is it able to keep up?
     
  8. Scuba_Dave

    Scuba_Dave Extreme DIY Homeowner

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    You CAN"T supply 2 showers since according to your own posts
    your tankwortless will only supply 2.09gpm flow rate

    So you have already posted that your tankworthless will NOT supply more then 1 shower at a time

     
  9. Ladiesman271

    Ladiesman271 Homeowner

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    The "boys" have stated over and over again that I can not run two showers "at the same time". I never made that claim. I have never even tested for that type of use. My home has one full bath and two 1/2 baths (read post 191), so how can I even test for that type of use when I only have one shower?

    Getting back to the basic question, the code limit for shower heads in this state is 2.5 GPM. If you use multiple shower heads in one shower stall, the total flow of all the shower heads added together can not exceed 2.5 gpm.

    I have the water heater thermostat set to 120 degrees. With 40 degree incoming water temperature, the specified 90 degree temperature rise @ the rated 2.09 GPM would indicate a limit of 130 degrees @ 2.09 gpm. In the summer with warmer incoming water temperatures, the unit is rated at 4.18 gpm with a 45 degree temperature rise.

    Anyhow, the first time I even measured flow in my shower was this year. I have the older three handle (hot / cold /shower) setup in my bathroom, so it was easy to measure hot and cold volume at the end of a long shower. As I recall the ratio was about 2 units of hot water to 1 unit of cold water (@ 40 degrees). The usual flow rate was about 1.5 gpm as I recall, so that would be 1 gpm hot water and .5 gpm of cold water. I have tested at full volume so the shower head was the volume limiter, so that would be about 1.6 gpm hot to .8 gpm cold.

    Hot water capacity @ 120 degrees (40 degree incoming) from any other fixture is available @ about .5 gpm to 1 gpm. That temperature is hot, so you end up mixing cold in with hot water use at any specific fixture.

    I have never had anyone try to fill up the kitchen sink with hot water while anyone was taking a shower. I use a dishwasher. To tell you the truth I am not even sure where I put the drain plug for the garbage disposer.

    Full on at the kitchen sink is 1 gpm (1 gpm maximum hot and cold mix). The normal comfortable setting is in the middle of the single handle kitchen fawcett (about 1/2 hot and 1/2 cold).

    Now if I turn on every hot water fixture to full on and leave them there, the hot water temperature in the shower will not remain at 120 degrees. Not sure of how low it goes either because that scenario has never happened to me in my lifetime. Maybe I will measure that this week if I get a chance to do so.

    Make sure you check you incoming winter water temperature and water pressure before you consider tankless gas. Tankless electric is another animal altogether and is not recommended for a lot of valid reasons.
     
  10. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

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    They are not saying they do not want to sell them. They are saying it is a costly install, and in most cases you will need to install more than one unit to handle the demand that most homes have. Which has been my point since day one. Yes some people can get by on a single unit install. I could get by on it in my mother's home if I install the largest unit out there. Thing is my mother's home is a 2 bath that was built in the early 50's but its only my mom and dad living their so they never run both showers at the same time and nor do they run the wash or dishwasher while someone is taking a shower. The newer homes in the Chicago suburbs are at least 3 or more baths, and they do take showers all at the same time and they do do laundry during showers. These larger homes also have 75 gallon high recovery tanks or some even have two 50 gallon high recovery tanks. These people would most definitely need to run two units to be able to handle their peak demand load.

    A.O. Smith, Bradford White, Rheem, and State water heater manufactures all say the same thing that Tankless water heaters is not the cure all that everyone is making them out to be.

    I have installed many tankless units, some of the home owners listened and let me properly size the unit and if the need be install two units together to meet their demands.

    The others that insisted from all their "research" that a single unit will handle their needs I still installed it for them with a disclaimer that I had informed them of a properly designed system. Sure enough after a week I get a call telling me that they are only getting tempered water. I just tell them to read my disclaimer, and if they want me to come and install it the way I recommended to them in the first place I be more than happy to. Other than that I can not help them any further.
     
  11. Ladiesman271

    Ladiesman271 Homeowner

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    Find a single post made by me where I stated that I could do that!

    I never said that I could do that. The "boys" along with yourself keep telling me I can not run two showers at the same time. That was always obvious to me. I only have one full bathroom, and two 1/2 baths. Maybe you, the "boys" and the Hillbilly man take showers simultaneously outside the house, but we do not do that around here.

    Read post 191 again.
     
  12. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

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    If you have more than one shower valve, each valve is allowed per the code to deliver 2.5 gpm to its total connected head. So if you have two shower valves that means that shower can have a total of 5 gpm. Lots of homes around here in their master bath have this arrangement, I have seen up to 4 mixing valves in one shower so if they turn on the overhead rain shower, body sprays set one and set 2 and the handheld shower, you are looking at 10 gpm.
     
  13. Ladiesman271

    Ladiesman271 Homeowner

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    Yup, my parents have a mid 60's vintage 5 bedroom colonial with 2 full baths and 2 1/2 baths. The hot water has a 1/2" line that is fed from the tankless coil in the FHW heating boiler. We had two adults and 7 children of various ages, and there was never a hot water shortage even with that tankless setup.

    Then again, we did not take two showers at the same time either. One after the other in two different rooms. By the time someone finished in one shower, there was the time lag of drying off, drying the hair, getting dressed and whatever. That's when the second shower was used. I am not sure if a typical sized single tank type heater could keep up with a lot of back to back showers either.

    Also do that many people run washing machines with the full hot wash and rinse cycle at any time during the day, let alone while someone is in the shower? Sounds like good grounds for a divorce to me!:D





    So you see no difference between a normal sized home and a McMansion?







    Tepid water where? Out of the tankless, or out of the shower head? Gas unit or electric? Public water with adequate water pressure, or well water? Current low flow shower heads, or high flow units? Pressure balanced shower valve or temperature controlled? Was this a McMansion?

    I assume that you did more than just install a tankless unit without evaluating the full "system".
     
  14. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

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    My mom still uses pure hot rinse cycle, but like I said her old plumbing she doesn't do it while someone is in the shower. My father likes to take super hot baths, after he fills the tub, then my mother starts the wash and her tanked unit recovered quick enough to supply the hot water to the washer.


    Here a McMansion is 7 bedrooms 5 baths. Normal homes are 4 to 5 bedrooms up to 4 baths.

    I always evaluate the system and make the proper recommendations, but the final decision lays with the home owner. These where all Gas units with city water 60 to 70 psi 1 to 1 1/2" water service, standard flow shower heads at 2.0 gpm. The valves are pressure and temperature controlled., Reason these people got tempered water was they where exceeding the demand of the single unit. They tried to have 3 showers go at once.
     
  15. Ladiesman271

    Ladiesman271 Homeowner

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    Whoops, my bad!

    McMansions again. I don't understand the attraction to those large and fancy bathrooms.
     
  16. Ladiesman271

    Ladiesman271 Homeowner

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    I think that you meant to say that the clothing in the wash never complained that the rinse was only "tepid"?;)





    Two showers is the limit that I have seen on the larger units with winter water temperatures coming in. Note that I would probably still have a tank type water heater if I did not need the floor space for other use. Still, I think the gas tankless is a better performer than the old tank heater was.

    Like Clint Eastwood said " A man's got to know his water heaters limitations. Did I use 2 gallons of hot water per minute, or 4 gallons per minute"!
     
  17. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Me thinkest the Laddy Boy is tilting the meter hard over...

    [​IMG]

    The inaccurate statements just ooze out of his mouth like when a bull lifts it's tail and every reply calling him on it just gets ignored as another piece of fertilizer takes it's place for us to reply to...

    Laddy Boy is a legend in his own mind when it comes to tankless knowledge..
     
  18. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Wrong Again Buckoo!
    The 2.5 is a per head limit!
     
  19. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Again Laddy Boy I direct your attention to this post requiring an answer...

    Laddyman,
    Are you a licensed plumber in the state of Mass?
    Was your installation performed by you in the state of mass?
     
  20. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    And your reply to this?
    Laddy Man,

    You really reached deep up beyond your spincter muscle to pull out this batch of brilliance...

    Flushing is required on tankless as well as tank type water heaters...

    The odors you mention are caused by sulfur reducing bacteria. The locations these bacteria can set up shop is not limited to tank type water heaters. Wells and even faucets may have a odorous bacteria colony set up a home.

    Water that has been heated has had its mineral content precipitated out of it and like RO water is hungry in terms of aggressiveness. It will even leach lead out of pre lead free solder joints... Your tankless is included in this aggresiveness. BTW RO water is a highly desired drinking water...

    White plastic particles?? Put down the crack pipe Laddy! Snap out of it! For several years in the 90's water heaters by many manufacturers were made with a defective dip tub installed in them. All persons who had water heaters with this problem were notified as required by law of a class action lawsuit and last date for filing claims for relief under the settlement agreement was December 31, 2000.
     
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