Snifter or schrader?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by Daniel08, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. Daniel08

    Daniel08 New Member

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  2. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Snifter and Schrader are terms that generally mean the same thing. However, a Schrader in that location is doing absolutely nothing unless you are attaching an air compressor and adding air manually on a regular basis.
     
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  4. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Edited...
    A snifter valve has a much weaker spring than a Schrader valve made for tires. It has to let air in if there is a light vacuum.

    A snifter cap must not be sealed. A tire valve cap is sealed. HOWEVER a snifter valve needs to be on the well side of a check valve, and there needs to be a drain-back valve or hole down the well.

    As it sits, you may have to add air periodically forever. If there is no drain-back in the well, you would be better off putting in a captive air diaphragm tank.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  5. Daniel08

    Daniel08 New Member

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    So i'm safe to buy a regular valve and cap it off?
     
  6. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    If you put in a precharged pressure tank, then you could cap that with a valve cap made for tires.
     
  7. Daniel08

    Daniel08 New Member

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    i was hoping to reuse the existing tank
     
  8. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    How was it living with that tank before the leak developed?

    Does your tank have an AVC (air volume control) that releases excess air?
    Did you add air with a compressor from time to time?

    How about a floor-level photo of the pressure gauge and the entrance to the wall, with the wire not hiding features.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  9. Daniel08

    Daniel08 New Member

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    The system seems to be operating fine other than the pump clicking on more than it should, i just noticed the bad rust and wanted to catch it before it started leaking
    No, i dont have an avc on the tank that i can see
    Iv'e never added air
     
  10. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    How long have you lived with that system? Maybe the previous owner added air from time to time, and that was only a few months ago.

    We are presuming that you have a submersible pump (down the well) and the clicking is from the pressure switch.
     
  11. Daniel08

    Daniel08 New Member

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    Iv'e been here 7 years
    I dont know what kind of pump i have tbh (google searched it looks like i have a submersible)
    yes the pressure switch is what i meant
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  12. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Weird. Your system does not match the classic configuration.

    What is rusting? It looks like the nipple under the pressure switch is rusting. Replacing that with a brass nipple would be good and easy.
    Get a new pressure gauge! The old one is rusty. You want a 0-100 gauge usually-- not 0-200. Liquid filled is better. https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/pumps-tanks/pump-well-tank-accessories/water-source-100-psi-pressure-gauge-with-1-4-lower-connection/m1002-4i/p-1444446043249-c-8672.htm would be handy, and https://www.supplyhouse.com/Temperature-Pressure-Gauges-864000 has good choices if ordering.



    And replace that galvanized plug with a bronze or brass drain valve that can accept a garden hose. https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/water-heaters/water-heater-parts-accessories/legend-valve-trade-3-4-mip-x-3-4-ght-boiler-drain/107-169nl/p-1501569269972-c-8689.htm would be one choice if the thread in the manifold is 3/4.

    Use good PTFE tape, and maybe pipe dope also.

    What is the pressure switch set for? Lets presume 30/50 for the following example.


    With the pump off, I would start by draining the tank of water, after the new drain valve is installed.
    1. close the drain, and add air until the pressure gauge rises to 20 psi.
    2. drain out the water. If you don't get a burst of air at the end, go back to step 1.
    3. start up the pump, and wait until it stops. Then add air to raise the pressure by 10 psi.
    You will, I presume, need to add air when the cycle time gets short. This will take some experimentation. You went 7 years somehow before. Could it be that your well produces some air on its own?

    I am not a pro, and my suggested procedure may have flaws. Make sure it makes sense to you before proceeding.
     
  13. Daniel08

    Daniel08 New Member

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    Whats the classic configuration?

    Yes, that pressure switch pipe is rusted, I'm just assuming the tee threads are damaged as well, so i'm prepared to replace all of it if need be.

    Im not sure how i went so long without adding air, i thought that was what a snifter valve was supposed to add air, but wouldnt a AVC be required with that as well
     
  14. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    That is usually because of a lack of air in the pressure tank. How often is it clicking on and off?
     
  15. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    Daniel

    from the pictures you’ve shared, it is obvious that your system was never installed correctly. I’m amazed that it has been trouble free for 7 years.

    you have a galvanized tank. There is no bladder or diaphragm to separate the air from the water. The air is slowly absorbed into the water and the tank becomes water logged. The cycle time for the pump becomes shorter and shorter.

    A galvanized air over water tank needs a way to replenish the air. You do not have that in your system. And the plumbing to the tank is not correct for an automatic air replenishment system without major work.

    you have two options. The first is to continue to use the system as is. However you need to add air thru that shraeder valve manually with an air compressor. You will need to do that periodically.

    Your second option is to replace that old tank with a precharged tank that you don’t have to continually add air two.

    Your choice, buy a compressor or buy a precharged pressure tank.

    and yes, I’ve been actually doing this for over 30 years.
     
  16. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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  17. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.greenroadfarm.com/projects-hobbies-and-how-tos/all-about-submersible-pumps-wells/ illustrates one after the diaphragm tank example.

    What they call the Drain & Y fitting would typically called a bleeder or drain-back valve, or could even be just a small hole in a less-sophisticated system. When the pump stops, the water leaks out of the bleeder. A vacuum is created at the snifter valve, and the valve admits air. The pipe fills with air down to the bleeder.

    When the pump turns on, a dollop of air with water behind pushes open the check valve. Because there is pressure, the sifter valve is closed. Air goes into the tank. The AVC releases the excess.

    I think the threads in that manifold are unlikely to be damaged.

    Avoid crossthreading when you add the new nipple.

    With no check valve, the Schrader/snifter valve stays under pressure. It never admits air. There would never be excess air for the AVC to release.
     
  18. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    These are photos of a job a few weeks ago. Notice the correct plumbing for a hydropnuematic tank. Separate in and out for the water lines. This is so the air and separate for the water. An above ground check valve with a snifter. There was a bleeder valve at the bottom of the first joint of drop pipe. Every time the pump shut off the top 20 ft of drop pipe drains out the water and fills with air. When the pump turns on, the air is injected into the tank. On the side of the tank, there is an air volume control valve to bleed off excess air.

    For this system to add air, four things have to work. 1. the above ground check valve. 2. The snifter valve to let air into the pipe. 3. The bleeder valve in the well to drain the water down to key sir in. 4. The volume control valve on the tank to bleed off excess air.

    all four of those items have been eliminated but changing to a precharged air tank.

    And yes it was at the customers, specific request that a VFD was added to control the submersible pump.

    they were also without water for a day and a half while the local handyman tried to fix it. Changing capacitors doesn’t fix a 1 1.2 ho pump that is pulling 50 amps. Thrust bearing was gone after 32 years.
     
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  19. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Aren't there a lot of conventional systems without separate input and output ports? I can see the separate ports would have an advantage that the air is not going to get sent to the user pipes as the pump starts.

    I am glad to see they allow pvc for the well system plumbing in a basement.
     
  20. Daniel08

    Daniel08 New Member

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    with one faucet on, its clicking every 10 sec
     
  21. Daniel08

    Daniel08 New Member

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    For now I'l probably add air manually, but when i'm ready would a guy be better off going with a csv Instead? I keep hearing the bladder tanks dont last long
     
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