Smelly Hot Water bad... I can't figure it out.

[Water Pro]

First sentence is incorrect. You said that second sentence backwards.
That would be for an iron/H2S filter, right? -- not a softener.

.agree to disagree. if that's the case why am I able to push a gallon of chlorine into the house lines. you can smell it strongly at the faucets? Why do people taste salt in their water if it regenerates while they are using their water?

 

[Bannerman]

WP, what brand and model control valve are you performing this on?

Your terminology is confusing.

You said dual tanks do by-pass. I suspect you are referring to a twin-tank softener which will immediately switch soft water delivery to the alternate tank before regenerating the depleted tank. As such, the softener will not be by-passed since there will always be one tank providing soft water.

A single tank softener cannot provide soft water while regeneration is occurring. Both Fleck and Clack control valves will allow only hard water to pass-by (by-pass) the softener while regeneration is taking place. Regeneration is typically scheduled for 2 am as that is when most occupants will be sleeping and unlikely to require soft water.

If the soft water flowing to faucets directly following regeneration tastes salty, then the Brine Draw/Slow Rinse setting is likely to be insufficient.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Water Pro]

WP, what brand and model control valve are you performing this on?

Your terminology is confusing.

You said dual tanks do by-pass. I suspect you are referring to a twin-tank softener which will immediately switch soft water delivery to the alternate tank before regenerating the depleted tank. As such, the softener will not be by-passed since there will always be one tank providing soft water.

A single tank softener cannot provide soft water while regeneration is occurring. Both Fleck and Clack control valves will allow only hard water to pass-by (by-pass) the softener while regeneration is taking place. Regeneration is typically scheduled for 2 am as that is when most occupants will be sleeping and unlikely to require soft water.

If the soft water flowing to faucets directly following regeneration tastes salty, then the Brine Draw/Slow Rinse setting is likely to be insufficient.

I've used this method on C and fleck valves to great effect. I think clack too, but can't confirm that. as far as I know there is no internal bypass on any off these units. I have not done this on a dual tank systems as I never had the situation arise.

 

[Reach4]

I've used this method on C and fleck valves to great effect.

Look at a Fleck service manual at "WATER CONDITIONER FLOW DIAGRAMS". See the path arrows for the "Brine/Slow Rinse Position".

Flow is open input to output, and also shows flow from the input through the injector screen, through the injector, through the tank, and out the drain line.

 

[Water Pro]

Look at a Fleck service manual at "WATER CONDITIONER FLOW DIAGRAMS". See the path arrows for the "Brine/Slow Rinse Position".

Flow is open input to output, and also shows flow from the input through the injector screen, through the injector, through the tank, and out the drain line.

I'll check it out, but I'm speaking from experience.

 

[ditttohead]

.agree to disagree. if that's the case why am I able to push a gallon of chlorine into the house lines. you can smell it strongly at the faucets? Why do people taste salt in their water if it regenerates while they are using their water?

On a modern system (Fleck or Clack built after 1978), if a homeowner is able to taste salt while the system is regenerating, there is a problem with the valve or system. if you look at the flow charts of modern valves, there should be no chance of salty water getting into the house during the regeneration process unless there is a problem with the valve.

 

[ditttohead]

I don't agree. most water softener do not by-pass while regenerating. that is why they regen at 2am. dual tanks do by-pass, but single tank systems do not. I've done it a LOT. the chlorine does in fact does get pushed through the plumbing system. Any damage to the resin is minimal because the chlorine is pushed out directly after by backwashing. I've literally done it hundreds of times with (from my experience) no long term harm to the resin. By comparison "C" uses a Cl generator which adds 2 minutes of chlorine during every brine draw with (to my knowledge) no adverse effects.

Maybe I am missing something here in the way you are wording it, but by code all softeners in a residential application must bypass hard water during the regeneration cycle. Many years ago the old Meuller valves did not do this, they would shut the water down during the regeneration process. The Fleck 7000 also had a weird dead spot where it would shut the water off to the house for a couple seconds while the piston moved between cycles (this was against code). They regenerate at 2 in the morning so as to minimizes hard water getting into the house, nothing more. Sucking in chlorox would net you about a 26,000 ppm solution. The chlorine generator produces between 1-10 ppm depending on many factors. This is a massive difference. Do not draw in bleach into a softener as described for a multitude of reasons. If you do, you would have to draw the chlorine into the resin bed, then cycle the system to the service position, then run the house lines to get the bleach properly distributed... here is an old article I wrote on the topic of sanitizing plumbing many years ago. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/282-283 Here are some pictures from our new catalog being released in about 6 months showing the difference between good and bad resin.

 

[Water Pro]

Obviously I'm not going to convince anybody here, but you can't convince me something i've literally seen with my own eyes isn't possible. Agree to disagree.As far as the CL damaging the resin, I suppose it's possible, but with such little contact time with the resin I can't believe it would cause any significant damage. point taken with the minimal amount of Cl added with 2 minutes of draw with C units though.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

Obviously I'm not going to convince anybody here, but you can't convince me something I've literally seen with my own eyes isn't possible. Agree to disagree. As far as the CL damaging the resin, I suppose it's possible, but with such little contact time with the resin I can't believe it would cause any significant damage. point taken with the minimal amount of Cl added with 2 minutes of draw with C units though.

Listen to what dittohead has to say...... any chlorine or bleach will mess up a water softener --eventually .....
sooner or later...it all depends on the parts per million..
you seriously don't want to put straight bleach through the water softener if I am reading this thread correctly...

In our city right now we are dealing with very high levels of chlorine and chloramines being put into the city water system and its destroying fairly new water softeners fast.......

Ditto would know the correct term for what is going on but basically the chlorine and chloramines are
reacting with the mineral bed and turning the stuff into something like bread yeast which literally fills
the water softener to the top as it expands in the tank something like yeast rising in an oven

This Clack unit I installed 7 years ago and its totally boned now.... I have had a few close to the water company pumping stations that have gone out in just over 5 years too....

I am presently pushing 2 cubic foot activated carbon filters to go in before the softener
to take out the chlorines and extend the life of the softener

 

[Reach4]

thoughts? I know it's pricy, but at this point, I was mentally ready to drop $1000 on a non-metallic water heater lol, and that doesn't sound like it would have helped since it's in the water coming in. not my tank producing it.

H2S can come in from the well. It can also be produced in the water heater.

As I understand it, SRB (sulfate reducing bacteria) can break down sulfate, but need metal ions to help with their operation. Magnesium works best of metals in WHs. Some other metals can work too, but not as well.

To stop this from occurring, you can use a powered anode, you can use a WH that does not need a sacrificial anode (plastic or stainless), you can remove the anode and insert a plug instead (accepting reduced WH life). You can make the water hotter, you can kill off the SRB. Sanitizing well and plumbing can help for a while. How long? Month, year, years? I expect that varies, but the better the sanitizing, the longer the effect I think.

Lot of stuff I don't know on this. Lots of stuff I have read. I would like to read more on it.

I have an H2S+iron backwashing filter, and I have a Ceranode powered anode. The H2S was my motivation more than the iron, but glad to be rid of the iron too. My iron was not too bad. My H2S was not too bad compared to some, but I did not want it. My media is about 7 years old, and I expect to need to change it some day.

 

[Water Pro]

H2S can come in from the well. It can also be produced in the water heater.

As I understand it, SRB (sulfate reducing bacteria) can break down sulfate, but need metal ions to help with their operation. Magnesium works best of metals in WHs. Some other metals can work too, but not as well.

To stop this from occurring, you can use a powered anode, you can use a WH that does not need a sacrificial anode (plastic or stainless), you can remove the anode and insert a plug instead (accepting reduced WH life). You can make the water hotter, you can kill off the SRB. Sanitizing well and plumbing can help for a while. How long? Month, year, years? I expect that varies, but the better the sanitizing, the longer the effect I think.

Lot of stuff I don't know on this. Lots of stuff I have read. I would like to read more on it.

I have an H2S+iron backwashing filter, and I have a Ceranode powered anode. The H2S was my motivation more than the iron, but glad to be rid of the iron too. My iron was not too bad. My H2S was not too bad compared to some, but I did not want it. My media is about 7 years old, and I expect to need to change it some day.

I'm a little vague myself on the reasons H2S perpetuates more on the hot side, but my thinking is this, an old timer once told me IRBs multiply more in a water heater because they feed on the magnesium rod. it may be that is the case, but also that a water heater is an oxygen depleted environment. heat may play a factor as well. I was trained that if H2S is only on the hot side, then it's perpetuating in the heater. if it's on the cold side as well, then it's coming from the well. a well is also an oxygen depleted environment in most cases, but without the heat and magnesium to promote colonies of IRB from forming in greater numbers.

 

[Water Pro]

Listen to what dittohead has to say...... any chlorine or bleach will mess up a water softener --eventually .....
sooner or later...it all depends on the parts per million..
you seriously dont want to put straight bleach through the water softener if I am reading this thread correctly...

In our city right now we are dealing with very high levels of chlorine and chlorimines being put into the city water system and its destroying fairly new water softeners fast.......

Ditto would know the correct term for what is going on but basically the chlorine and chlormines are
reacting with the mineral bed and turning the stuff into something like bread yeast which literally fills
the water softener to the top as it expands in the tank something like yeast rising in an oven

This Clack unit I installed 7 years ago and its totally boned now.... I have had a few close to the water company pumping stations that have gone out in just over 5 years too....

I am presently pushing 2 cubic foot activated carbon filters to go in before the softener
to take out the chlorines and extend the life of the softener

I've only

Listen to what dittohead has to say...... any chlorine or bleach will mess up a water softener --eventually .....
sooner or later...it all depends on the parts per million..
you seriously dont want to put straight bleach through the water softener if I am reading this thread correctly...

In our city right now we are dealing with very high levels of chlorine and chlorimines being put into the city water system and its destroying fairly new water softeners fast.......

Ditto would know the correct term for what is going on but basically the chlorine and chlormines are
reacting with the mineral bed and turning the stuff into something like bread yeast which literally fills
the water softener to the top as it expands in the tank something like yeast rising in an oven

This Clack unit I installed 7 years ago and its totally boned now.... I have had a few close to the water company pumping stations that have gone out in just over 5 years too....

I am presently pushing 2 cubic foot activated carbon filters to go in before the softener
to take out the chlorines and extend the life of the softener

I've only seen that once. the homeowner was literally right next door to the treatment plant. his resin would only last 1 to 2 yrs, but he rented the softener and refused to buy a carbon tank, opting to just have his resin replaced when necessary. the resin beads expand and turn into something resembling apple sauce.

 

[Reach4]

I'm a little vague myself on the reasons H2S perpetuates more on the hot side, but my thinking is this, an old timer once told me IRBs multiply more in a water heater because they feed on the magnesium rod. it may be that is the case, but also that a water heater is an oxygen depleted environment. heat may play a factor as well. I was trained that if H2S is only on the hot side, then it's perpetuating in the heater. if it's on the cold side as well, then it's coming from the well. a well is also an oxygen depleted environment in most cases, but without the heat and magnesium to promote colonies of IRB from forming in greater numbers.

I agree with that.

I got to thinking tho...

1. We know magnesium (Mg) is really active in helping SRB to produce H2S. It is widely recognized that getting rid of a Mg anode can help a lot. How about the Mg in unsoftened water. Even if you don't have a sacrificial anode to provide Mg, there is Mg in the water.
2. SRB can use other metals to reduce sulfate to sulfides and H2S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfate-reducing_microorganism does not even mention Mg, but does identify iron.
3. I wonder if Mg serves as a catalyst in producing FeS and H2S. Precipitate in the bottom of a WH is often blackish, compatible with the color of FeS. MgS is not stable in water. There can be a whitish gel precipitate when using an aluminum anode. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....liquid-discharge-from-hot-water-heater.71194/

 

[Water Pro]

I agree with that.

I got to thinking tho...

1. We know magnesium (Mg) is really active in helping SRB to produce H2S. It is widely recognized that getting rid of a Mg anode can help a lot. How about the Mg in unsoftened water. Even if you don't have a sacrificial anode to provide Mg, there is Mg in the water.
2. SRB can use other metals to reduce sulfate to sulfides and H2S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfate-reducing_microorganism does not even mention Mg, but does identify iron.
3. I wonder if Mg serves as a catalyst in producing FeS and H2S. Precipitate in the bottom of a WH is often blackish, compatible with the color of FeS. MgS is not stable in water. There can be a whitish gel precipitate when using an aluminum anode. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....liquid-discharge-from-hot-water-heater.71194/

I believe you may be correct in that H2S production may be promoted by the combination of Mg and Fe or S. In that scenario, water with greater hardness combined with Fe or S would be more likely to form H2S than that of water with lower hardness. edit: although usually not as widespread of a problem, manganese is very chemically similar to Fe and could also contribute (much the same as Fe)

 

[Water Pro]

another thing that comes to mind after reading your link that stated "Some sulfate-reducing microorganisms can directly utilize metallic iron [Fe(0)] as electron donor, oxidizing it to ferrous iron [Fe(II)" leads me to conclude that higher levels of ferrous iron in raw water (as compared to ferric) would be indicated by elevated occurrence of H2S. Since it's difficult to effectively distinguish between levels of ferrous as opposed to ferric Fe during testing, one can conclude that higher levels of H2S would indicate higher levels of ferrous, as opposed to ferric, are present.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

I've only

I've only seen that once. the homeowner was literally right next door to the treatment plant. his resin would only last 1 to 2 yrs, but he rented the softener and refused to buy a carbon tank, opting to just have his resin replaced when necessary. the resin beads expand and turn into something resembling apple sauce.

Our water is so nasty here in Indy that the softeners are going out like pop corn all over town....
the only real way to extend the life of them on our city water is to add that carbon filter before
the new water softener.....
I got a neighbor who has a 25 year old Autotrol water softener that is still working fine because
he is on mild well water ..... it might be near the end of its life due to its age but it is not under stress
from high water pressure or chlorine....

we installed this carbon unit near my home last week,,. they have over 110psi so I threw in a
PRV valve on the incoming line and it all fit into this room just fine...... Now its a question as to
how long this softener will last with the psi geared down to 65 and the bleach is taken out of the
system

 

[Water Pro]

Our water is so nasty here in Indy that the softeners are going out like pop corn all over town....
the only real way to extend the life of them on our city water is to add that carbon filter before
the new water softener.....
I got a neighbor who has a 25 year old Autotrol water softener that is still working fine because
he is on mild well water ..... it might be near the end of its life due to its age but it is not under stress
from high water pressure or chlorine....

we installed this carbon unit near my home last week,,. they have over 110psi so I threw in a
PRV valve on the incoming line and it all fit into this room just fine...... Now its a question as to
how long this softener will last with the psi geared down to 65 and the bleach is taken out of the
system

should last 20 yrs plus with minor maintenance providing the carbon tank is backwashing frequently enough and the softener is set properly for salt usage and regeneration frequency.

 

[Water Pro]

Our water is so nasty here in Indy that the softeners are going out like pop corn all over town....
the only real way to extend the life of them on our city water is to add that carbon filter before
the new water softener.....
I got a neighbor who has a 25 year old Autotrol water softener that is still working fine because
he is on mild well water ..... it might be near the end of its life due to its age but it is not under stress
from high water pressure or chlorine....

we installed this carbon unit near my home last week,,. they have over 110psi so I threw in a
PRV valve on the incoming line and it all fit into this room just fine...... Now its a question as to
how long this softener will last with the psi geared down to 65 and the bleach is taken out of the
system

one thing to be aware of is that chlorine is easily removed by granular activated carbon. chloramine, on the other hand, is better removed using centaur carbon (which is a catalytic carbon). your municipality should be able to tell you which (Chlorine or chloramine) they use. chloramine is essentially chlorine mixed with ammonia. it's different in that it will not dissipate over time when exposed to air, like chlorine will.

 

[s10010001]

H2S can come in from the well. It can also be produced in the water heater.

As I understand it, SRB (sulfate reducing bacteria) can break down sulfate, but need metal ions to help with their operation. Magnesium works best of metals in WHs. Some other metals can work too, but not as well.

To stop this from occurring, you can use a powered anode, you can use a WH that does not need a sacrificial anode (plastic or stainless), you can remove the anode and insert a plug instead (accepting reduced WH life). You can make the water hotter, you can kill off the SRB. Sanitizing well and plumbing can help for a while. How long? Month, year, years? I expect that varies, but the better the sanitizing, the longer the effect I think.

Lot of stuff I don't know on this. Lots of stuff I have read. I would like to read more on it.

I have an H2S+iron backwashing filter, and I have a Ceranode powered anode. The H2S was my motivation more than the iron, but glad to be rid of the iron too. My iron was not too bad. My H2S was not too bad compared to some, but I did not want it. My media is about 7 years old, and I expect to need to change it some day.

I am already using a powered Anode, no luck. The company (CorroProtec) even send me a new power supply they said works better. It didn't help.

I am also already running the water at max. Its just my wife and I home, so we know to be careful. Didn't help.

If I flush the water heater completely, even add bleach. I can get 1 good shower out of it before it stinks again.

I recently added an Iron/Sulfur specific 10"x4.5" filter to my filter housing. An $80 filter. It helped for 1 day, maybe 3 showers before the smell came back

Im thinking either a big expensive backwashing filter or calling in a pro, but I don't want some guy to just start guessing on crap either. I don't mind paying but I want someone good. So I guess I need to search. Do you have a recommended iron backwashing filter?

 

[Reach4]

I am already using a powered Anode, no luck. The company (CorroProtec) even send me a new power supply they said works better. It didn't help.

I am also already running the water at max. Its just my wife and I home, so we know to be careful. Didn't help.

If I flush the water heater completely, even add bleach. I can get 1 good shower out of it before it stinks again.

I am not a pro.

I would consider re-sanitizing at the cistern, and use the bleach and vinegar. I think I would recirculate the water from the hot (turned off) back into the cistern, and make sure the recirculating water has sufficient chlorine and low-enough pH to make it effective. I would not aim for the 200 ppm chlorine I aim at for the well, but I would like to see something like 25 or so recirculating. Don't run 25 ppm thru the softener for long.

Long term, H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) injection may be good. People seem to have good luck on H2S with that. Typically you inject the H2O2, and iron precipitates. Ideally, the precipation would be into a contact tank with a blow-down port to let you blow out the sediment (rust). Then typically the H2O2 gets removed with GAC (granulated activated carbon). But some residual, maybe 5 to 10 ppm H2O2 continuing on thru the pipes and WH. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my sanitizing writeup where I discuss pH, etc. For the well I use a flooding volume. For the cistern that would not apply.

I am not sure what would be best for you, but I would start accumulating the vinegar, get chlorine strips, and get a pH meter along with the packets to make the calibration solutions with distilled water.