Professional opinions on this plumbing job, please.

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by Kimster, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Occupation:
    Robber, with some DIY on the side.
    Location:
    USA
    Wow, that's Canadian justice for you.

    In America you sometimes have to pay half the balance up front. And even a fee just to get quotes.
     
  2. Kimster

    Kimster Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Location:
    Manitoba
    There are some outfits that charge for estimates but most don't. I will be paying them a fair rate for coming out. I just don't know how much of the job I should pay for yet because of what is actually done wrong. If something was just my preference, I will pay for that. But, there were a couple of times I requested something be done a certain way (like laundry and bath on separate shut-offs), that they did a good job of getting out of. That was not OK. I had asked for it and they didn't do it and then they gave all sorts of reasons why I'd never have to shut one off and need the other for a long period of time. We, duh, how 'bout this renovation?

    I would have given them a third to do the work if it was requested, but the rest would have been held back. That's standard on most construction here. 1/3 up front, 1/3 at the midway point and the rest when the job is done and passes inspection.

    I'm not one of those people who want something for nothing. I will pay good money for good work, but shoddy plumbing or anything else, shouldn't be rewarded.
     
  3. worsnup

    worsnup plumbing contractor

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Occupation:
    plumbing contractor
    Location:
    phoenix az
    i love cinch clamps
     
  4. Kimster

    Kimster Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Location:
    Manitoba
    Hey everyone,

    I'm reviving this thread because I've taken Ian Gills' advice and I'm just doing it myself. Since this fiasco, I have redone the hot and cold lines in PEX myself so that the bathroom can be isolated from the rest of the lines and have put the shut-offs in the right place to do so. Now I can do laundry while working on the bathroom plumbing.

    We have had a new window installed, insulated and have been working on reinforcing the framing for the new wall-hung sink. I've also redone the ABS section of the stack, which, if you read back, wasn't done properly. The roof portion of it came down an inch or so and wasn't pushed back up. The sink drain line also wasn't done properly -- would have siphoned the trap and I've redone that, too -- at the proper height according to the drawings for the sink.

    My question now is about the sink drain. The 90 I have on the arm didn't totally bottom out when I glued it together because I was trying to make it plumb vertically and flat horizontally so it didn't angle out of the wall once the drywall is put up. I tested it by pouring water into it and it didn't leak. The front side of it is pretty much bottomed out but the backside isn't. Is this a problem? Should I cut it out and use a 1.5 x.1.5 coupler and try again?

    Also, if the drywall goes up as is, because I have 2 x 4 construction, the hub on the sink arm will have to be pushed in just a bit (like 1/4") so that it can all be contained in the wall. Is this also OK, or should I undo the Ferncos holding the cast to the ABS and turn the ABS just a smidge if I can, so that there isn't any pressure on the arm at all? I guess I just don't know how strong that glue is.

    First picture is of the entire thing, second is of the inside of the 90 where there is a bit of a gap.

    DSC_0883.jpg
    DSC_0885.jpg

    I'll also be posting other images of what I've done in the basement for opinions. I'm not at the point that I would be redoing any of the water lines again, but I wouldn't mind finding out if there was something I could have done better in terms of configuration. The water is flowing, there are no leaks and I have yet to do the lines in the actual bathroom. I will be using copper stub-outs and compression angle stops with ball-valves at the fixtures and the shower will have an exposed mixing valve and shower pipe, so all I need are hot and cold coming out of the wall.

    Much appreciated,
    Thanks again!
    Kim
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2011
  5. kreemoweet

    kreemoweet In the Trades

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Location:
    Seattle. WA
    That 90 bend you show sure looks to me like a "vent 90", which are not to be used on drains. What is that yellow stuff in the pipe? Sure doesn't
    look like any ABS pipe cement I've ever seen. There's a kind of pipe glue on the market called "universal pipe cement" which is claimed by
    the manufacturers to be suitable for just about any kind of plastic pipe, but in fact it is NOT, and is not allowed (by U.S. plumbing codes) to be
    used on ABS.
     
  6. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Wrong elbow, wrong cement and wrong rubber coupling. None of that would pass
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2011
  7. Kimster

    Kimster Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Location:
    Manitoba
    Thanks guys. You have to remember that I'm in Canada. This is the cement that everyone uses. I have ABS existing in the basement, installed by professionals and it has this stuff holding it together. It's this cement:

    http://www.oateycanada.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/515/ABS+Premium+Yellow+Cement.html

    So, what kind of elbow should have been used? When I had the original "plumbers" in, they used the same type and then added another piece of 1 1/2 ABS that would have protruded through the wall. I was going to do the same.

    Also, about the Ferncos. I wanted to use the shielded couplers but I had to be able to slide the sleeves up from the ABS pipe to bridge the CI and ABS. The shielded ones have a "lip" in the center so that the pipes don't actually butt up against each other. I couldn't use these because there isn't any extra room for me to push up on the CI in the attic to install the thing. I was going to buy the separate shield for the Ferncos. The whole thing is sitting very tight as is.

    Thanks.

    ETA: Ahh! OK, I can see by the picture near the end of this page that the elbow I should be using has a longer curve than the one I used:

    https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?39829-Double-Lav-drain-question

    That won't be a problem. I'll just cut out what I installed and use this type instead. Thanks for pointing that out!
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
  8. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    An ABS repair coupling would do the job.
     
  9. JMThomas

    JMThomas New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    This might not be a problem, but I don't like the wood studs the black drain pipe passes through.

    First, the horizontal 2x8 isn't supported. Treat it like a window header and install jack studs under it (one on each side). The hanging sink can be heavy.

    Second, the old notch at the bottom of the doubled stud isn't sister-ed well. The break in the right hand stud is too close to the notch. This problem may be fixed by adding the jack stud if the wall is non-bearing.

    Finally, any remaining notches, like the one in the left hand stud, must not remove more than than 25% of the 2x4 (.25 x 3.5"=7/8" ) for a bearing wall, and not more than 40% (1 3/8") of a non-bearing wall. Measure to see if you need to fix them. Also, I'd treat that stud as bearing because it's supporting the header for the sink.

    (Old) holes are centered and 40% max in a bearing wall, 60% non-bearing; all seems OK there, nothing to fix. Doubling the stud allows the hole for the drain pipe to be larger than the hole size allowed in a single stud.
     
  10. Kimster

    Kimster Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Location:
    Manitoba
    An ABS repair coupling would do the job.


    A plain 'ol ABS repair coupling would have to be glued, no? I can't glue it to the CI. That's why I used a Fernco. What's the issue with the Fernco anyway? Is it that it isn't shielded? I was going to get the shield separately and wrap the Fernco with it.

    http://www.ferncoconnectors.ca/plumbing/shielded-couplings/stainless-steel-shear-rings

    Something like this looks like a good one but it's in England. Anything like this here? I need something that either slides over the ABS and up onto the CI or something like this that wraps around.

    http://www.teekaycouplings.com/US/PRODUCTS-US/p21repaircouplia.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
  11. Kimster

    Kimster Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Location:
    Manitoba
    This might not be a problem, but I don't like the wood studs the black drain pipe passes through. First, the horizontal 2x8 isn't supported. Treat it like a window header and install jack studs under it (one on each side). The hanging sink can be heavy.

    What I've done with the 2x8 is screwed in 2x2s to the studs in behind it with 3 inch s/s screws. Then I was going to attach the 2x8 to the 2x2s with more 3 inch s/s screws. The sink that will be hanging there is small and weighs 25 lbs. Would my method be acceptable for that weight?

    Second, the old notch at the bottom of the doubled stud isn't sister-ed well. The break in the right hand stud is too close to the notch. This problem may be fixed by adding the jack stud if the wall is non-bearing.

    The wall is non-bearing. The stud on the left isn't actually the stud that goes to the top plate. It's the one on the right which, when we opened up the wall, was missing the entire bottom piece. So, I cut a piece that fits in there snugly and was going to screw it to the stud on the left (which is what was holding up the framing for the old medicine cabinet.

    Finally, any remaining notches, like the one in the left hand stud, must not remove more than than 25% of the 2x4 (.25 x 3.5"=7/8" ) for a bearing wall, and not more than 40% (1 3/8") of a non-bearing wall. Measure to see if you need to fix them. Also, I'd treat that stud as bearing because it's supporting the header for the sink.

    I was going to add another piece of wood to fill that squared notch on the stud on the left.

    (Old) holes are centered and 40% max in a bearing wall, 60% non-bearing; all seems OK there, nothing to fix. Doubling the stud allows the hole for the drain pipe to be larger than the hole size allowed in a single stud.

    So, can I screw in the piece of stud I added at the bottom of the one that's cut out and add the third stud to the right of it but only up to the new pipe or do I have to sister it all the way up to the top plate because there's wiring I can't move and I'd have to notch it out at that point?

    Again, thanks a lot. This is a first time project and I'd like to get it done properly even if I have to backtrack a little.
     
  12. JMThomas

    JMThomas New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    1. Someone leaning on the sink can add to the weight...

    2. 2x2s are bad in general, unless they're a nailer for drywall. You need 2x4 in order to put in TWO large screws/nails. While I like screws, their sheer strength is a lot less than larger nails. I always use more screws than I would nails when any loading is involved.

    3. I really can't say (without doing calculations) if your scheme is sufficient. Follow the weight. Sink puts weight on 2x8 levering it (rotating it) as well as pulling it down. Your framing needs to consider this twisting.

    I'd get as strong a connection at the corners of the header as possible, using doubled wood to give more surface area for connecting the header to the studs. I'd also double the studs to control their deflection as the header twists.

    Don't forget to fasten side by side studs together to unify them into a single piece, ditto for the header and its backing.

    Note: I'm a DIY with common code knowledge, plus a few civil engineering courses from my college days. What I don't often know is what solutions are used in the field, i.e. were engineered way back in time and passed down as "works fine". If I can't find a specific example, I often just overbuild it rather than take a lot of time doing the calculations.

    missing the entire bottom piece!!!!! It wasn't doing any work as a stud, i.e. carrying the compressive load from the wall top plate down to the joists!

    I'd like to think that sistering it on the right (left doesn't count because of notch) would help, but I don't know that the sister would extend far enough past the break without running into the drain pipe. Bottom line is probably "no problem" until the tornado comes or tree falls through the roof.

    The more I thing about things, the more I'd go with adding in a bit of steel to fix the notches and breaks, instead of wood sistering.

    Stud Shoes are made for these situations. Compression and Tension Straps may also be just what you need in place of sistering. See also this link.

    USP is just as good as Simpson StrongTie.

    Best Wishes, and remember my disclaimer :eek:
     
  13. Kimster

    Kimster Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Location:
    Manitoba
    Yes, I can just see my husband leaning on it :rolleyes:

    While I would have liked to put more 2x4s in there, because of where the hot and cold lines and the drain arm is, it's near impossible. What I'm going to do, then, is put a few angled steel brackets on the backside of the 2x8 and screw that all to the studs as well as screwing the board to the 2x2s. Twisting force will also be mitigated because I notched out the center stud and the 2x8 fits in there nice and tight. You can't twist it down to get it out of there.

    I will overkill it with screws.

    I don't mind excessive "just in case."

    It was kinda sistered to the stud beside it, but barely.

    And then I'd have much bigger problems than just my bathroom framing, lol!

    Thanks for those links! I had seen those shoes before, but I never thought to use them. Good idea. I'll just have to locate them 'cause I don't think big box stores carry them. The only thing that concerns me about these things is that I pretty much have the wall flat for the drywall and tile (in non-wet areas) and I'd have to shave down the stud a teeny bit so the steel sits flush with the stud. Sistering would be easier.

    I'm trying not to be overly concerned about the framing because this house has been standing for over 50 years and there aren't any cracks in the plaster, but I do know I have to reinforce for the shower glass, the sink and for grab bars for sure.

    BTW, if anything you said didn't make sense, I would have considered your disclaimer, but it all sounded logical to me.

    Thanks!

    Now if I could just get some more action on the plumbing questions...:)
     
  14. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    didn't realize that was C.I. below, sorry, however yes it should be a banded coupling.
     
  15. Kimster

    Kimster Member

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    Jul 9, 2010
    Location:
    Manitoba
    Thanks for clarifying, Tom!
     
  16. JMThomas

    JMThomas New Member

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    Sep 17, 2009
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    You're very welcome.

    Compression/Tension strips can be placed on the sides of the 2x4; they don't have to be between the 2x4 and the drywall to do their job. The rolled edges will be out of the way.

    I wouldn't worry about stud shoes or cover plates causing a bulge in the drywall unless you are an Absolute Perfectionist. Normal variations in wood shape (warping, alignment) cause slight departures from absolutely flat drywall. Even the thickness of drywall varies near its edges (though you fill it out with drywall mud).

    Bulges from plates will spread out over a distance. Extra screws near the bulge can help pull the firmly sheet down against the plate, and the steel will impress itself a bit into the back side of the drywall, which will help lower the top of the bulge.

    Anything prominent enough for you to notice without placing a straight edge against the wall can be reduced by filling around the edges with mud using a wide trowel. You extend the width of the bulge so its sides can have a longer, gentler (and less visible) slope.

    At least that's what us amateurs do...
     
  17. Kimster

    Kimster Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Location:
    Manitoba
    I guess I was thinking about the sections in the top and bottom plates that were cut out to accommodate the vent stack. I was going to bridge those gaps, too. I think I might still be able to do the top plate without drywall problems.

    I'm a designer by trade, so, yes, I'm a perfectionist. Here, though, I think I'll have to learn to deal with it. The tile I'm using is 8x24 and I was going to install in horizontally, but I think now, I'll do it vertically and I'll have less problems with wall imperfections.

    That's what pro's do, too. Hubby is a painter and he's always floating out wall repairs. I'm having a pro come in to do the tile, too, so I know he'll have his own methods. At least I've seen his work and know it's good (unlike the "plumbers" I hired).

    After I've done all this framing/reinforcing, it's on to the shower pan drain assembly and the connections in the basement. I'm sure I'll have questions about that. I just downloaded the Canadian Plumbing Code. Hope there's someone here who can help translate if necessary (Doherty, I'm looking your way on this ;)).
     
  18. Kimster

    Kimster Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Location:
    Manitoba
    DWV fittings help

    So it was pointed out that I used a vent 90 on my lav drain rough-in. Apparently a real DWV ell doesn't exist around here and everyone uses what I have used. I can order the part from the US but is this something I SHOULD do or is it something that is going to cause me great grief over the long haul?

    What I have on there is a NIBCO 5807SR (which in their literature means 1 1/2 90 hubxhub and the SR apparently means "stack upturn (s) right (r)."

    What I actually need is a 5807 which is a 90 ell hubxhub and is a more gentle turn. No one has these anywhere here. They're on the HD website but all inventory across Canada is zero.

    So, what do I do. Do I leave it as is or find one in the US to order? Can someone provide me with a link to someplace in the US where I can order it from and the exact name of the part I'm looking for down there (part names might be different)?

    ETA: I can't use the long turn because my walls are only 4" thick.

    Thanks for the help!
     
  19. JMThomas

    JMThomas New Member

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    Sep 17, 2009
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    I suspect that the drain ell/small sweep is specified 98% to aid the turning of a clean-out snake, and 2% for (unnoticeable to me) better fluid flow.

    I looked for ABS (black) 2" and for 1 1/2" short sweep (drain ell). (I assume Canadian plumbing hasn't gone metric...). They are sold in Ohio, but not Illinois or Indiana (where I live). I'd almost think they were against code!!!! (We're UPC/Southern.) I can special order...

    Update:

    Dummy me...

    All the DWV stuff I've seen in construction has been white, i.e.PVC not ABS. The PVC version of the fittings are cheep and plentiful. The question is how to legally/correctly connect them.

    One section of the code says you can't glue ABS to PVC. However, Oatey says their "ABS to PVC Transition Medium Green Cement" is UPC IAPMO listed for non-pressure connections, meaning it's an acceptable exception to the prohibition in the UPC.

    From other discussion, green "cement" (you're actually solvent welding, i.e. melting and fusing the plastic itself) works just fine. The problems are that many (old stodgy set-in-their-ways) inspectors don't like it, and that many local building code "over-rides" to the standard codes specifically prohibit it.

    I'd just ask my inspector if he was "color blind".

    The alternative would be to get a PVC elbow and attach a PVC pipe, then mate the PVC/ABS pipes inside the wall with a rigid (metal banded neoprene) coupler.

    PS: You still have to attach a trap adapter to the elbow, which might be again a problem locating a fitting if you stay all ABS.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2011
  20. Kimster

    Kimster Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Location:
    Manitoba
    Thanks, JM. I think I'll make a couple of phone calls tomorrow morning -- to the city plumbing inspector and see what he says. My access to the plumbing code that I paid for isn't working and they're looking into it. I had gone to Wolseley, where all the pros go and they didn't even have them. Called another pro place and they didn't either. I'd love to know what's going on with this. I think I'll also call NIBCO and see what they say about their product's unavailability. You can learn an awful lot just by calling and asking.

    I'll post what they have to say. If I do need to get another type of short sweep rather than a medium sweep (which is I think what I'm looking for), I'll have to cut the drain arm and scab on a longer straight piece because as it is, the drain is exactly in the right place. I guess I'd use a repair hub, then. But hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

    Sure would like to hear from Doherty on this. Wonder if he's still on the forums.
     
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