Pressure tank (maybe switch) failure

[H22lude]

Last year I checked the pressure in my pressure tank (Water Pro WW32SS). It was low so I brought it up to 38psi. Everything seemed to be ok after that. I just noticed that my pressure switch was going from 40 to 60 in less than 2 seconds and then from 60 to 40 in about the same time. I drained the tank and checked the pressure. I wasn't getting a reading. I filled it back up to 38psi. Now the gauge goes slowly from 60 to about 55 then shoots down to 40 in a second. Then when filling back up, it shoots from 40 to 55 in a second and goes slowly from 55 to 60.

Does this sound like a bad pressure tank that needs to be replaced? It was new with the house, built in 2012.

I was also getting really bad sediment coming out of my faucets. Not as bad now but still not as clear as it was before I did this. I assume that will settle down. Could the sediment be rust from inside the tank caused my low pH (tested at 5.5)?

Well company is coming Friday to check the tank and get a water test to see what I need for filters (currently don't have any).

 

[Reach4]

Does this sound like a bad pressure tank that needs to be replaced?

Yes.

Tank precharage should be checked annually, but tanks don't usually have to be topped up each time.

I was also getting really bad sediment coming out of my faucets. Not as bad now but still not as clear as it was before I did this. I assume that will settle down. Could the sediment be rust from inside the tank caused my low pH (tested at 5.5)?

Possible. Did the sediment look like rust? Do you have high iron in your water?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[H22lude]

Just checked water again. It keeps going from little reddish brownish to mostly clear back to little reddish brownish with sediment in it.

Yeah it does from what I can tell. I'll attach a picture. This is from my basement sink where I drained the tank.

No, not at all. Iron is <0.05mg/L and manganese is 0.0403mg/L

 

[Reach4]

my pressure tank (Water Pro WW32SS)

I could not find info on that pressure tank.

Your old one has the classic symptoms of failure.

You could work around the failure temporarily by adding air. A lot of air, but you can overdo it. I am not sure how to describe a method. One safe way should be to turn off the pump and turn of uses of water. Use the drain valve near the bottom of the tank, and with a compressor, drive all of the water out that you can. The pressure should drop, and air will come out of the drain. Then close the drain valve. That amount of air is less than normal. From there, I might add enough air to bring the pressure to about 6 psi less than the pump cut-in. Don't want to overdo it, because we want to avoid blasts of air from faucets in the house. Then turn on the pump.

If your compressor is rated in psi but not rated in cfm or scfm, it will take a long time of running the compressor I predict.

 

[H22lude]

I could not find info on that pressure tank.

Your old one has the classic symptoms of failure.

You could work around the failure temporarily by adding air. A lot of air, but you can overdo it. I am not sure how to describe a method. One safe way should be to turn off the pump and turn of uses of water. Use the drain valve near the bottom of the tank, and with a compressor, drive all of the water out that you can. The pressure should drop, and air will come out of the drain. Then close the drain valve. That amount of air is less than normal. From there, I might add enough air to bring the pressure to about 6 psi less than the pump cut-in. Don't want to overdo it, because we want to avoid blasts of air from faucets in the house. Then turn on the pump.

If your compressor is rated in psi but not rated in cfm or scfm, it will take a long time of running the compressor I predict.

It is made by Amtrol but it seems like it is contractor grade. Very cheap from what I could find.

I have a well company coming Friday to look at it and look at a pH neutralizer. They sell Flexcon Flex-Lite tanks. I'll just try not to use much water until then.

 

[Valveman]

Once the water has gotten on top of the tank diaphragm adding more air won't help. You need a new tank. But you also need to address the problem that caused the failure to start with. Tank diaphragms are broken from going up and down too many times because the pump is cycling on and off too many times. The dirty water you are seeing could be coming from the bad side of the tank. Sediment is also stirred up from the pump cycling, and when the tank is bad is cycles even faster. You solve the cycling problem and your pump system will last several times longer than normal, which normal is about 7-8 years on average. You can tell if you h ave a good pump guy if he is favorable to solving your problems by using a Cycle Stop Valve. If he doesn't recommend a CSV it is because he wants to do this job again every 7-8 years.

 

[H22lude]

Once the water has gotten on top of the tank diaphragm adding more air won't help. You need a new tank. But you also need to address the problem that caused the failure to start with. Tank diaphragms are broken from going up and down too many times because the pump is cycling on and off too many times. The dirty water you are seeing could be coming from the bad side of the tank. Sediment is also stirred up from the pump cycling, and when the tank is bad is cycles even faster. You solve the cycling problem and your pump system will last several times longer than normal, which normal is about 7-8 years on average. You can tell if you h ave a good pump guy if he is favorable to solving your problems by using a Cycle Stop Valve. If he doesn't recommend a CSV it is because he wants to do this job again every 7-8 years.

Is this something they should have on hand? If not, is this something I can easily install after they put in a new tank? I'm trying not to use much water right now so I don't cycle the pump often. It was cycling every 2 seconds. I'd like to at least get a new tank installed Friday when they come so I can use my water as normal again.

 

[H22lude]

I just spoke with the well company. They said they can do one of three things. 1) Install just a Flexcon Flex Lite FL12 tank by itself, 2) Flexcon Flex Lite FL7 with CSV or 3) Flexcon Flex Lite FL7 with utility drive. He recommended the utility drive over the CSV, saying for my house the CSV wouldn't be as good.

Would there be situations when one is better than the other? My well is 800' deep, pump is at 485', recovery rate is at most 1.5GPM, and static water level is 22'.

 

[Reach4]

Would there be situations when one is better than the other? My well is 800' deep, pump is at 485', recovery rate is at most 1.5GPM, and static water level is 22'.

That is a special situation, and may not be a good CSV application due to high pressures. What pump will/do you have?

For that situation, you would probably want a Dole valve to avoid upthrust when the water level is high. I am not a pro.

 

[H22lude]

That is a special situation, and may not be a good CSV application due to high pressures. What pump will/do you have?

For that situation, you would probably want a Dole valve to avoid upthrust when the water level is high. I am not a pro.

I'm not sure what the pump is. Wire size is #12 and amps were 9.7.

I should also state that my flow is only about 4GPM out of a garden spigot, if that matters. With the pump depth and the slower flow, I don't think we would ever run out of water. Which I know is good but I would like to get more flow, 6GPM maybe. Not sure if that is possible.

 

[Reach4]

I'm not sure what the pump is. Wire size is #12 and amps were 9.7.

For a 2-wire pump that would be between 3/4 and 1 hp probably. With a control box ("3-wire)" maybe more HP, particularly if it has a CRC (has run capacitor) control box.

Another aspect is the deadhead pressure you can deliver to the the surface when the pump is deadheaded ( flow blocked). That is a function of not only the HP, but also the gpm rating of the pump. You could measure that briefly.

If they pull the pump, photograph both labels on the pump. That will have info including date codes.

 

[H22lude]

For a 2-wire pump that would be between 3/4 and 1 hp probably. With a control box ("3-wire)" maybe more HP, particularly if it has a CRC (has run capacitor) control box.

Another aspect is the deadhead pressure you can deliver to the the surface when the pump is deadheaded ( flow blocked). That is a function of not only the HP, but also the gpm rating of the pump. You could measure that briefly.

If they pull the pump, photograph both labels on the pump. That will have info including date codes.

I believe they said it was 3/4HP. When I first bought the house, I found a way to calculator pump flow 9https://www.cleanwaterstore.com/res...ump-flow-rate-on-systems-with-pressure-tanks/). I calculated 10GPM.

Would they be pulling the pump to replace the pressure tank?

 

[Reach4]

Would they be pulling the pump to replace the pressure tank?

No.

I would prefer to see a pump delivering 10 gpm pumping into a 44 gallon tank rather than a 32 gallon tank. If we estimate that maybe V/4 gallons will be pumped into a V gallon pressure tank, you would need a tank of 40 gallons or more to achieve a 1 minute minimum run time.

If you have a 3/4 hp 7 gpm pump, that would work until the water level got below 160 ft. It would deliver almost 10 gpm when the water was 22 ft down. A 5 gpm 3/4 hp pump would work to about 350. Others may reach a different conclusion. It may be that your water never draws down to even 150. With your deep-set pump, you don't run out of water. The well delivers less and less, until it is delivering about 1.4 gpm. So if the pressure ever gets low, with your 400+ ft deep pump, as you are doing a lot of pumping, just take that as probably a no-harm indicator that you should take an irrigation break.

With a 3/4 hp motor, I expect you would not exceed the pressure limits of a CSV.

Do you have a control box? I don't mean the pressure switch.

When the guys come out Friday, if they worked on your well before, they may have the pump info and more. If there are well-installer stickers on your equipment that are not theirs, they may cover over those existing stickers unless you object.

 

[Valveman]

I just spoke with the well company. They said they can do one of three things. 1) Install just a Flexcon Flex Lite FL12 tank by itself, 2) Flexcon Flex Lite FL7 with CSV or 3) Flexcon Flex Lite FL7 with utility drive. He recommended the utility drive over the CSV, saying for my house the CSV wouldn't be as good.

Would there be situations when one is better than the other? My well is 800' deep, pump is at 485', recovery rate is at most 1.5GPM, and static water level is 22'.

There is no reason to set even a 5 GPM, 3/4HP pump at 485' when it can only pump from 385' and still deliver 40/60 pressure. If you have a pump large enough to pump from 485' and the static is at 22', then I agree with your well company.

Even at that depth and with such a high static we could make a CSV work, but with no more water than you use it may not be worth it. This is one of those situations where a VFD could be recommended over a CSV. Although, I would highly recommend the regular pressure switch and an FL12 tank over the VFD type system.

However, constant pressure in a shower is really nice. If you install a 3/4HP, 7 GPM at say 285', then a Cycle Stop Valve and a FL7 or even smaller tank is all you need. That is more a normal well type set up. Setting the pump at 285' would give you about 400 gallons stored in the well, which would handle everything except maybe some long term irrigation zones.

 

[H22lude]

No.

I would prefer to see a pump delivering 10 gpm pumping into a 44 gallon tank rather than a 32 gallon tank. If we estimate that maybe V/4 gallons will be pumped into a V gallon pressure tank, you would need a tank of 40 gallons or more to achieve a 1 minute minimum run time.

If you have a 3/4 hp 7 gpm pump, that would work until the water level got below 160 ft. It would deliver almost 10 gpm when the water was 22 ft down. A 5 gpm 3/4 hp pump would work to about 350. Others may reach a different conclusion. It may be that your water never draws down to even 150. With your deep-set pump, you don't run out of water. The well delivers less and less, until it is delivering about 1.4 gpm. So if the pressure ever gets low, with your 400+ ft deep pump, as you are doing a lot of pumping, just take that as probably a no-harm indicator that you should take an irrigation break.

With a 3/4 hp motor, I expect you would not exceed the pressure limits of a CSV.

Do you have a control box? I don't mean the pressure switch.

When the guys come out Friday, if they worked on your well before, they may have the pump info and more. If there are well-installer stickers on your equipment that are not theirs, they may cover over those existing stickers unless you object.

I assume the reason it is down so far is because the recovery is so bad and did that instead of trying to improve recovery. If I bought this brand new, I would have done it differently.

No control box. Only thing I have is the pressure tank with switch.

They have worked here before but just to test the well and look at pressure. One visit. Never pulled pump or anything. Am I sure the previous owner never did anything.

 

[H22lude]

There is no reason to set even a 5 GPM, 3/4HP pump at 485' when it can only pump from 385' and still deliver 40/60 pressure. If you have a pump large enough to pump from 485' and the static is at 22', then I agree with your well company.

Even at that depth and with such a high static we could make a CSV work, but with no more water than you use it may not be worth it. This is one of those situations where a VFD could be recommended over a CSV. Although, I would highly recommend the regular pressure switch and an FL12 tank over the VFD type system.

However, constant pressure in a shower is really nice. If you install a 3/4HP, 7 GPM at say 285', then a Cycle Stop Valve and a FL7 or even smaller tank is all you need. That is more a normal well type set up. Setting the pump at 285' would give you about 400 gallons stored in the well, which would handle everything except maybe some long term irrigation zones.

Would the FL12 alone be ok for pump life? Constant pressure isn't essential, though it would be nice. My top priority is to make the pump last longer, essentially since replacing it will probably be expensive with all that wire.

 

[Reach4]

Would the FL12 alone be ok for pump life?

Not sure. FL12 would be a little better capacity-wise than your old tank was when new. It's not going to rust.

After install, see how long the pump runs at minimum. 1 minute or longer is target.
https://www.flexconind.com/products/well-tanks/flexlite-well-tanks/

FL17 would be better if the adder was not a lot. It is a 1-1/4 input instead of 1 inch, but that adapter in the piping is cheap.

I would still pump some air if you have a handy compressor, for the day or two until Friday.

 

[Valveman]

I know about setting a pump down far enough to utilize the wells recovery. But these is still no reason to install a pump at 485' if it cannot pump from deeper than 385'. Yes the FL12 would be good, and the FL17 would be even better. When you cannot utilize a Cycle Stop Valve the tank needs to be as large as possible to at least reduce the cycles.

 

[H22lude]

Not sure. FL12 would be a little better capacity-wise than your old tank was when new. It's not going to rust.

After install, see how long the pump runs at minimum. 1 minute or longer is target.
https://www.flexconind.com/products/well-tanks/flexlite-well-tanks/

FL17 would be better if the adder was not a lot. It is a 1-1/4 input instead of 1 inch, but that adapter in the piping is cheap.

I would still pump some air if you have a handy compressor, for the day or two until Friday.

We are having red staining issues (iron is well under the limit and manganese is right at the limit, so my guess is rust). Hoping this new one will take care of that.

I'll see if they have the FL17

 

[H22lude]

I know about setting a pump down far enough to utilize the wells recovery. But these is still no reason to install a pump at 485' if it cannot pump from deeper than 385'. Yes the FL12 would be good, and the FL17 would be even better. When you cannot utilize a Cycle Stop Valve the tank needs to be as large as possible to at least reduce the cycles.

Would it make sense to raise the pump? Even at 385' down, with low recovery, I don't think I'd run out of water unless I left sprinkler on.