New Construction House, VERY hard water. Help!

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers' started by saubz, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. saubz

    saubz New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2019
    Location:
    Goddard, KS
    Hello,

    This is my first post - so hello! I'm in need of advice and from what I've read for the last few weeks on this forum, I think I'm in the right place.

    My family (2 adults, 5 kids) just built a house in a rural area and moved in a month ago. We're on well water and the hardness has really caught us off guard. The builder installed a 40k grain softener and RO for drinking and ice maker. I'm pretty sure this is laughably small given our circumstances. We've had two water companies come and test our water and quote us systems. We also have that rotten egg smell coming from hot and cold taps.

    First company (Culligan):
    Hardness 119 gpg (used a scale-like device to test)
    No iron suspected
    Recommended 90k grain dual tank softener

    Second company (Ecowater):
    Hardness 145 gpg (used a drop test)
    No iron, iron bacteria, nitrates, or any other contaminates found
    Recommended 90k grain single tank softener
    Recommended whole house all purpose carbon filter

    So we have very hard water and naturally present hydrogen sulfide gas (so it seems).

    I am thinking of purchasing and installing a Fleck 9100SXT 96k dual tank system (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A6GSI0M/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1). Is this an adequate setup?

    As for the H2S, I'm not sure how to begin with that. Whole house carbon? Sulfer Eliminator? Chlorine? Peroxide?

    What else should I consider? If you need more info, I'm happy to provide as well.

    Thank you for any help you all can provide!
     
  2. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    You really need to obtain a comprehensive lab test as the entire water conditions need to be considered before deciding on appropriate treatment methods.

    National Labs is most often recommended on this forum.

    https://watercheck.com
     
  3. Sponsor

    Sponsor Paid Advertisement

     
  4. rdsnake

    rdsnake Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Location:
    Illinois
    Agreed. You need a water test to show exactly whats in the water. I called every single water company to look at mine and none of them wanted to do a water test. Just sell me on a softener.

    I also have a 9100SXT twin tank WS and I'm not all that happy with the setup. I'd much rather have a single tank unit. My water is terrible at 30 GPG hardness, I couldn't even imagine it in the 100s.

    Before my WS, I use a Katalox Light (KL for short) AIO filter to treat my Iron/H2S smell. I've been extremely happy with that.
     
  5. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Not sure in practice why you would consider a single tank WS would be preferable between the two types.

    Are you experiencing reliability, operational or pressure problems? Perhaps start another thread describing your issue and also provide the current settings, hardness, usage etc, as may be the issue can be resolved with a simple setting change.
     
  6. rdsnake

    rdsnake Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Location:
    Illinois
    I have started a number of threads with my concerns in regards to the twin tank. Mostly is reliability concerns switching between both tanks (error code 1). Way too many moving parts IMO. My KL filter with a 2510SXT doesn't skip a beat. I really love that valve.
     
  7. saubz

    saubz New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2019
    Location:
    Goddard, KS
    Well, I got my results from our local lab. They are actually worse than I thought. An advice is appreciated.

    I attached an image with the results.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
  9. saubz

    saubz New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2019
    Location:
    Goddard, KS
    Is 96k dual tanks big enough for this hardness? Or should I look at 110k dual tanks?
     
  10. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    First, note that some people would refer to a system using two 10x54 inch 1.5 cuft tanks as a 48000 grain system, and some as a 96000. So just be aware of that.

    I had thought about that originally. I am not sure, but part of it would depend on how many gpm you would flow at a time max. If you wanted to flow 10 gpm, then two 1.5 cuft tanks is not quite big enough. A tank has to be able to provide the water you are using plus the water the other tank is backwashing with. 1.5 cuft has a SFR of about 12 gpm, and backwashing a 10 inch tank takes 2.4 gpm.
     
  11. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Larger is generally preferable.

    Most softeners will typically be sized large enough so as not to need regeneration more than 1X per week while using an efficient salt and capacity setting. With your extremely hard water and high occupancy, 1X per week regeneration is not possible unless an unusually massive softener is installed.

    Since a single tank unit will delay regeneration to one specific time, usually 2 am, a 1-day reserve allowance will be subtracted from the programmed capacity to ensure more capacity will not be used than will be regenerated. This is to anticipate the programmed capacity will be consumed and regeneration will be triggered early in the day, well before 2-am. With your extreme hardness, any reserve allowance would represent a substantial amount of capacity which may or may not be utilized depending on when in the day regeneration is triggered.

    A twin system will not typically require a reserve allowance since the second tank will immediately take-over soft water delivery once the programmed capacity of the 1st tank has been depleted. This means that all of the programmed capacity may be utilized on a consistent basis. Also, the depleted tank does not need to wait until a specific time to regenerate and can be programmed to do so immediately when regeneration is triggered.

    We don't know your actual water usage but for many people, 60-75 gallons per person per day is average.
    Your water test reveals water hardness of 3040 / 17.1 = 178 grains per gallon. To be added is a hardness inefficiency factor of at least 1.5 thereby making your compensated hardness 267 gpg or higher.

    Using 65 gals/pp/day X 7 ppl X 275 gpg (compensated hardness rounded to 275) = 125,125 estimated grains per day softening load.

    Assuming the capacities you mention are per tank, the 96K system will contain 3 cuft resin in each. For efficient operation, that quantity of resin will deliver 72K grains when regenerated with 24 lbs salt (8 lbs/cuft) and so would provide enough capacity for about 1/2 day usage before switching to the 2nd tank.

    A tank containing 4 cuft (128K grains total per tank) will deliver 96K between regen cycles when regenerated with 32 lbs salt (8 lbs/cuft) or switching after approx 3/4 of one-day usage.

    The size of the system is your choice. While there would be no issue with either softener switching tanks partway through each day, keep in mind, a smaller system will require more frequent regeneration and will, therefore, probably require substantially more water for regeneration over the course of each year.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  12. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    What are you wanting to accomplish with this water? What level of quality do you want? Considering the lousy quality, and the massive increase you will have in sodium levels vs. calcium/magnesium, this may be a viable whole house RO system. A softener would certainly help but it will do nothing for the sulfate levels. Total dissolve solids are much higher than desirable levels.

    So... what quality of water do you want to have when you are done treating it? I am not much of a bid fan of whole house RO but this is an application that it might make sense.
     
  13. EAJ

    EAJ New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2020
    Location:
    Florida
    I would definitely use National Testing Lab for a proper panel to determine the best approach, 119gpg vs 145gpg is a big discrepancy. Be prepared for a dual tank softener, whether a Fleck or Clack valve, and even then, you might not get softened water, just a reduction in hardness. A possibility at that level.
     
  14. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    This thread is 1.5 years old.
     
  15. saubz

    saubz New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2019
    Location:
    Goddard, KS
    So, 2.5 years later...

    I have just purchased and installed a Fleck 9100 SXT with dual 96k tanks.

    My hardness is 178 gpg and compensated hardness (178 x 1.5) is 265. The problem is, the Fleck only goes up to 199 gpg. Is there any way I can program the system to behave as if I have 265 hardness or should I just leave it at 199? Any other settings I should change?

    Thanks!
     
  16. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Yes. The (gallons between regens) is (C/H) . Capacity /Hardness).

    If you set the C number to half of the actual capacity, and change the H to half of the 265, you should get regens the same as you are looking for.
     
  17. saubz

    saubz New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2019
    Location:
    Goddard, KS
    Thank you, Reach4, for you assist. The softener is up and working. First test indicates pretty low hardness (1.5 gpg on a hach strip test). What a relief after a couple years!

    Here are my settings if anybody would like to audit:

    DF - GAL
    VT - dF1b
    CT - Fl
    NT - 2
    TS - U2
    C - 39 (96k actual, using 10 lbs salt per cub ft so 78k adjusted capacity, divided by 2)
    H - 133 (178 actual, 266 compensated, divided by 2)
    RS - rc
    RC - 0
    DO - 7
    RT - 2:00
    BW - 10
    BD - 60
    RR - 12
    BF - 20 (.5 gpm x 20 min = 10 gal, 10 gal x 3 lbs/gal = 30 lbs salt)
    FM - t0.7
     
  18. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Do you have 14 x 65" or 16 x 52" tanks with 3.0 cu. ft. of resin each? Just checking.

    What kind of injector (1700/1600) do you have, and what color? I don't know offhand how to distinguish which series you have. An increase in BD may be in order, depending on the color of your injectors. Alternatively, time how long into BD the brine is all sucked down as far as it will go. Multiply that by 3.5 to get a new BD time.

    10 minute backwash may be longer than needed.

    It is possible that you may not go a whole day without regenerating at times. So CT - Fl (immediate regeneration), as you have, would be the choice.

    I come up with 283 as compensated hardness for 178 using a bit different method than just the table. And that presumes no significant iron or manganese. So watch the resulting hardness as you are counting down, and if you are getting excessive leakage as the countdown approaches zero, increase H.

    Do you have a fork truck, or loader that can get to the brine tank? That would make handling salt easier. Hauling 40 to 50 lb bags will get tedious.

    When using the Hach 5-b to measure raw hardness, I would use 8 parts distilled water to 1 part raw water. Then multiply the drops by 9. For measuring residual hardness, that dilution would not be needed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021 at 9:02 AM
  19. saubz

    saubz New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2019
    Location:
    Goddard, KS
    I have two 14x65" tanks with 3.0 resin in each.

    Not sure the color of my injector. The sticker says "INJECTOR 2" and "DRAIN FLOW 4.0 GPM".

    Can the backwash be shorter since the regenerations will occur pretty frequently?

    If I set to CT - Fd, would the depleted tank just regen at 2:00 AM? That may be more desirable. I don't think I'll ever go through both tanks in a day.
     
  20. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    With a #2 type 1600 injector, I would set BD to 82 minutes but 90 minutes would be a more cautious number.

    A 14 inch tank needs a 5.0 DLFC (drain line flow control) for adequate backwash to expand the media. Your dealer should provide that free willingly if you ordered this for 14 inch tanks. When you swap that, note they are directional. I think the flow is from the molded numbers (and F) side, toward the drain line. So the numbers would be closest to the valve body.

    Yes, but let's be clear. If you still have 1 gallon of capacity at 2 am, you would not regen until the next 2 am. During the day, if you go through that gallon and then the unused tank by 10 pm, you will not regen until 2 am. In that case, do two regens happen sequentially at 2 am? I don't know. So I would choose immediate if you think there is a fair likelihood you will go through the capacity of one tank in 24 hours. Don't worry about a remote possibility. Some hardness for a while is not catastrophic.

    If you are having an event such as putting on a big Thanksgiving dinner with the relatives, you always have the chance to do an immediate regen in advance. But that brings up another question: Does that only regen one tank, or does it wastefully regen both tanks? I would like to think it would only do the one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021 at 9:16 AM
    saubz likes this.
Similar Threads: Construction House
Forum Title Date
Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers Softener recommendation for new construction Jun 23, 2020
Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers New Well, New Construction, New To Water Treatment Jan 24, 2018
Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers Do I need air injection for whole house filter to work? Sep 9, 2021
Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers Max Peroxide Residual in House Sep 5, 2021
Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers Convert booster pump RO system to using house pressure? Aug 22, 2021

Share This Page