Need pumping ideas for water storage tank

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CountryBoy19

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I'm installing a water storage tank at a remote location for livestock watering. The location does freeze in the winter so everything will have to be buried. There is line power available.

The way I've traditionally seen this done is drop a submersible pump in the tank and plumb it out of the tank, underground to the structure it will feed where-in the pressure switch and pressure tank would be located. There is no heated structure to locate the tank/switch in this case.

I have a few ideas but I would like to hear yours.

Note: the flow rate will be very low 99% of the time. It's just feeding a water trough with a float valve, maybe 1 gpm at most, occasionally up to 4 gpm but there is no harm if the tank takes a minute or so to refill. I've considered throwing a small diagram pump such as Shurflo etc in the tank (if I can find a sealed, waterproof one) or in a small pit dug beside the tank with it's own internal cutoff switch, similar to how an RV water supply works. Would you advise against that?

30 psi is plenty of pressure in this case.
 

Zenon2cubed

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Where does the water come from?
Are you planning to pump from a well into the cistern, or will you truck water in with a tote?
 

Valveman

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An RV pump might work, but they are not made for long term use. A submersible well pump in the storage tank won't freeze. When used with a Cycle Stop Valve a little 4.5 gallon size pressure tank is all you need. The PK1A kit will fit in a 24"X24"X17" box. So it can be in a small insulated box or even buried if needed.
pk1a-md.jpg
 

CountryBoy19

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Where does the water come from?
Are you planning to pump from a well into the cistern, or will you truck water in with a tote?
I didn't think it was relevant so I didn't mention it.

It will be rainwater off the roof of a livestock barn (non heated) that is nearby.

If the tank ever runs out it will be trucked in.
 

CountryBoy19

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An RV pump might work, but they are not made for long term use. A submersible well pump in the storage tank won't freeze. When used with a Cycle Stop Valve a little 4.5 gallon size pressure tank is all you need. The PK1A kit will fit in a 24"X24"X17" box. So it can be in a small insulated box or even buried if needed.
View attachment 83304
I'm familiar with the CSV products. I have a cycle sensor on my well. I've also been looking at your site considering it as one of my possible options for this.

I'm not sure a CSV is a good fit in this case. The consumption of water can be very low amounts, cyclical, for long durations. It may be as low as 0.1 gpm (depending on what livestock is drinking at the time) and it is very cyclic. It's not really like turning a faucet on which will use a few gpm.

If I could find a submersible pump in a smaller size I would believe it to be a good fit. But 1/2 hp, 5 gpm is the smallest I can find. When looking at the actual discharge curve it will flow closer to 10 gpm at the very low head I need. Can a well pump handle 1/100 of it's rated discharge without damage?

I'm not 100% opposed to a CSV system, I just need some convincing that it's the right course of action for this use type. I'm very analytical so I could be overthinking this too.

One of the factors is the cost. Several hundred for a quality submersible plus a Pk1A is about $500 right? I can buy 12 RV type pumps for that cost so even if they fail every few years it'll still likely be cheaper.
 

Reach4

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A 5 gpm pump is more pump than you need. A 10 gpm pump is cheaper because it has fewer stages.

Put your pump into a flow inducer sleeve to cool the motor better.

I don't know how you prevent the stock tank and its plumbing from freezing up.
 

Valveman

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Like Reach says a 10 GPM, 1/2HP is about the smallest and least expensive pump you can get. The whole idea of a Cycle Stop Valve is to make a pump like that do any job you want it to do. Even with the little 4.5 gallon size tank, which only holds 1 gallon of water, there isn't any flow rate between zero and 10 GPM that will hurt the pump. The CSV1A has a minimum flow of 1 GPM built in, as the pump needs a minimum of 1 GPM flow to stay cool. So, as long as you use more than 1 GPM the CSV will keep the pump running continuously and never let it cycle. When using less than 1 GPM the pump will cycle, but very slowly like 2 minutes on and 2 minutes off.

When using say 0.5 GPM the CSV makes the pump work like a 1 GPM pump. The pump runs for 2 minutes as the CSV fills the 1 gallon in the tank at 0.5 GPM, since the other 0.5 GPM is being used. When the tank if full the pump shuts off, and the 1 gallon in the tank supplies the 0.5 GPM demand for 2 minutes before the pump restarts. These run and off times can be doubled by using a 10 gallon size tank for 4 minutes on and 4 minutes off. A littler larger tank can make the run and off times whatever you want. But the 2 minutes on and 2 minutes off is the best method according to the pump and tank manufacturers, and the 4.5 gallon size tank would be smaller and easier to insulate.

With a 24/7/365 demand of 0.5 GPM I would recommend a 20 gallon size tank with 5 gallons of draw. But with intermittent demands of less than 1 GPM, the 4.5 gallon size tank is plenty.

In the last 30 years I have used Cycle Stop Valves to solve the water system problems on farms with just one horse to Liberal Feeders in Liberal Kansas with 40,000 head of cattle. Liberal had a 100HP pump/motor they replaced every 6 months as that is as long as it would last from all the cycling. Since adding the Cycle Stop Valve the same motor has lasted 28 years so far, and still going. You can see why pump and motor manufacturers hate Cycle Stop Valves?

Most feed yard operations are working from water wells with an unlimited supply of water. So, most have leakers on the water troughs that keep the water flowing 24/7 to keep it from freezing. These "leakers" keep the pipe, pump, and troughs from freezing, but cycle pumps to death in short order. We make CSV's from 1" to 12" to handle anything from 0.1 GPM to 5,000 GPM flows, keeping this from happening to any size pump on any size farm.

There are lots of different pump controllers on the market these days, but you still cannot get any better than the Cycle Stop Valve no matter what size system you have.
 

John Gayewski

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Bury a 36"pipe vertically to make a small manhole. Then put your components in it. Pour a concrete floor in it. Then make a lid.
 

CountryBoy19

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I don't know how you prevent the stock tank and its plumbing from freezing up.
Are you asking for an answer to this?

I'm not the only person running livestock in a freezing climate. There are a multitude of solutions to this problem. Valveman alluded to 1 solution but I'm not blessed with abundant ground water so I can't do that (leave the water run). In my case I'm using a Cobett freeze resistant waterer. It is insulated with 4" closed cell foam and it gets buried 8 ft in the ground to take advantage of the thermal mass of the ground (there is a big hollow chamber underneath where air, heated by the ground rises and heats the trough of water).

2-28-19-Cobett-Cows-Image-for-Home-page-web.jpg


Valveman, thanks for the explanation, that makes sense!
 

CountryBoy19

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Bury a 36"pipe vertically to make a small manhole. Then put your components in it. Pour a concrete floor in it. Then make a lid.
I will likely have to do this no matter what. But I will probably use a 55 gal poly drum bc I have a supply of those free. 36" pipe (poly) is over $100/ft. The drum won't let me get a larger tank in there so it will probably have to be a 4.5 gal as valveman suggested.

I'm also hesitant to pour a floor, groundwater during heavy rainfall can be an issue. I don't want the components on the bottom of the pit in the event water gets in.

Valveman, are the CSV products all corrosion resistant so as to tolerate being located in a pit in the ground (high humidity environment)?
 

Zenon2cubed

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An alternative to delivering a constantly pressurized supply with pressure tank and pressure switch would be installing the smallest submersible well pump possible, trigger pump power directly with a tethered float switch, and install a ball valve to limit flow down to your desired ~1 GPM to avoid short cycling.

Tethered Switch
 

Zenon2cubed

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I will likely have to do this no matter what. But I will probably use a 55 gal poly drum bc I have a supply of those free. 36" pipe (poly) is over $100/ft. The drum won't let me get a larger tank in there so it will probably have to be a 4.5 gal as valveman suggested.

I'm also hesitant to pour a floor, groundwater during heavy rainfall can be an issue. I don't want the components on the bottom of the pit in the event water gets in.

Valveman, are the CSV products all corrosion resistant so as to tolerate being located in a pit in the ground (high humidity environment)?
They have a plastic CSV that threads directly onto the output of a submersible pump.
 

Valveman

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Valveman, are the CSV products all corrosion resistant so as to tolerate being located in a pit in the ground (high humidity environment)?
Yes the CSV will be fine. Spray the tank with Flex seal to keep it from rusting. But you biggest problem is a pit is the pressure switch. The condensation will turn the copper green and made it corrode much quicker than normal. A vent fan with auto opening louvers working on a thermostat can help with the condensation.
 
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