Need help with Fleck 2510 / 3210 timer settings

[Reach4]

No. I have measured the tank and the level of water after it fills and the space it fills would contain 76 gallons if there was no salt present. The tank is 26 inches in diameter and 52 inches tall. Water fills to 36 inches which is roughly 6 inches below the overflow. Doing the math tells me it contains 76 gallons of water and salt, plus the salt in the tank that is above the waterline.

Take off about 2 inches because the brine will pull down to about the middle of the air check valve. Then divide your computed volume by 2.5 to allow for the salt. So about 28.8 gallons. Then multiply by 3 which would be about 86 pounds of salt. divide by 4 cuft, and you get 21.5 lbs of salt per cubic ft of resin. (if I calculated right)

So almost 3 times as much as you should want. So your problems don't appear to be related to insufficient brine fill.

 

[Bannerman]

So your problems don't appear to be related to insufficient brine fill.

Except, he indicated the incoming water is not being shut off due to the time setting, but because the fluid level is raising the safety float. Either the BF volume is too high for the capacity to be regenerated, the safety float is calibrated incorrectly, or there is less space remaining than anticipated to contain that amount of water.

Regardless, the current programmed capacity is too high so reducing the programmed usable capacity to 80K or 96K grains will substantially reduce the quantity of water needed in the brine tank while also increasing efficiency.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Otto Mation]

I ran a regeneration and I am timing the tank fill now to get an idea for how much water is being sent to the brine tank. Whatever the issue is, I am coming to the conclusion that the number of gallons between regeneration's needs to be reduced. The hardness was under estimated for a number of reasons and the capacity of the unit to handle that number was over estimated. I read somewhere that a factor of 1.5 should be applied just because of the high hardness level taking 133 grains of hardness to 200. I am thinking at this point regeneration at every 400 gallons is in order.

 

[Otto Mation]

Wow, I am surprised. Just under 15 minutes to fill the tank at a reported .5 gpm. So 76 gallons of space in the tank that includes salt only results in just under 7.5 gallons of water.

For the record this brine tank holds over 800 lbs of salt.

 

[Otto Mation]

Also, I want to thank @Reach4 and @Bannerman for chiming in on this thread and look forward to more conversation about this.

 

[Reach4]

Except,

Except?

Either the BF volume is too high for the capacity to be regenerated,

That one.

Wow, I am surprised. Just under 15 minutes to fill the tank at a reported .5 gpm. So 76 gallons of space in the tank that includes salt only results in just under 7.5 gallons of water.

Where did 0.5 gpm come from? Did you find a BLFC label or look at the marking on the button?

Are you saying that it takes 15 minutes to fill the brine tank to where the float limits the fill? 7.5 gallons would be than you probably want. You would like to have about 10.67 gallons to be injected. 7.5 gallons is out of step with your earlier volume calculations. If you stopped the water coming in when the brine fill just starts, you could then fill the brine tank with 5 gallon buckets up to the level it has been refilling to. That way you will know the volume empirically.

I think regenerating every 400 gallons (then also wait until 2 am) is more frequently than needed, but not grossly so. At this point more frequently is good. You can look to extend that later if the softness is good at 400.

 

[Otto Mation]

Are you saying that it takes 15 minutes to fill the brine tank to where the float limits the fill? 7.5 gallons is les than you probably want. You would like to have about 10.67 gallons to be injected. 7.5 gallons is out of step with your earlier volume calculations. If you stopped the water coming in when the brine fill just starts, you could then fill the brine tank with 5 gallon buckets up to the level it has been refilling to. That way you will know the volume empirically.

That is the label on the unit and now that I took a picture of it that may be specifically for brine draw. Thinkimg about this the draw time is much longer than the fill time. And yes 15 minutes till the float stops the fill.

 

[Reach4]

That is the label on the unit and now that I took a picture of it that may be specifically for brine draw. Thinking about this the draw time is much longer than the fill time. And yes 15 minutes till the float stops the fill.

So we can conclude one of these, I think, so I am putting what I think most probable:

1. The brine was not being drawn out all of the way, so it took less time to fill back.
2. The BLFC is passing significantly more than 0.5 gpm because it is a 1 gpm button.
3. The 0.5 BLFC has hardened up and is not properly limiting the flow.
4. Your brine tank is not actually 26 inches diameter
5. Your salt has less space between the pieces than usual salt. (#4 and #5 least likely)

 

[Bannerman]

The amount of water space remaining can vary depending on the type of salt you use.

Just under 15 minutes to fill the tank at a reported .5 gpm.

Is the amount of water correct based on BF & BLFC, or was the water inflow stopped by the safety float/valve as reported earlier?

 

[Otto Mation]

So we can conclude one of these, I think, so I am putting what I think most probable:

1. The brine was not being drawn out all of the way, so it took less time to fill back.
2. The BLFC is passing significantly more than 0.5 gpm because it is a 1 gpm button.
3. The 0.5 BLFC has hardened up and is not properly limiting the flow.
4. Your brine tank is not actually 26 inches diameter
5. Your salt has less space between the pieces than usual salt. (#4 and #5 least likely)

1. The brine was not being drawn out all of the way, so it took less time to fill back.

Not the case. I watched it draw down to within an inch or so from the bottom. You can see it by looking in the tube the float unit resides in,

1. The BLFC is passing significantly more than 0.5 gpm because it is a 1 gpm button.

Your guess is as good as mine.

1. The 0.5 BLFC has hardened up and is not properly limiting the flow.

See above.

1. Your brine tank is not actually 26 inches diameter

I know how to us a measuring tape.

1. Your salt has less space between the pieces than usual salt. (#4 and #5 least likely)

No idea. It is Morton clean and protect.

 

[Otto Mation]

The amount of water space remaining can vary depending on the type of salt you use.


Is the amount of water correct based on BF & BLFC, or was the water inflow stopped by the safety float/valve as reported earlier?

The float stopped the flow in 15 minutes. The timer is set to allow fill for an hour.

Edit: Should have read: The timer is set to allow fill for 40 minutes.

 

[Reach4]

Salt will displace water, thereby resulting in a small amount of water being pushed upward in the tank. While you state 76 gallons total capacity for the brine tank, I anticipate that is the total volume before overflowing the upper rim. Since there is a safety float sitting lower in the tank to set an upper limit, and an overflow drain on the side to eliminate excess fluid in case the safety float and valve malfunction, the liquid capacity will be much less.

Perhaps a higher quantity of water than anticipated is actually entering your brine tank?

I think the brine fill pins call for over 40 minutes of brine fill -- not an hour -- not that it matters since the safety float is controlling it.

Otto, I would use a dip stick of some sort to make sure the brine is indeed all being sucked out. I suspect that the brine is not all being sucked out.

If it is being sucked out, I would look at the BLFC button to see if it has the expected "50" molded in that a 0.5 BLFC would have. There is a front and a back, so don't flip it around. The location on the 5810 is different from the 5600 and most others.

 

[Otto Mation]

Otto, I would use a dip stick of some sort to make sure the brine is indeed all being sucked out. I suspect that the brine is not all being sucked out.

If it is being sucked out, I would look at the BLFC button to see if it has the expected "50" molded in that a 0.5 BLFC would have. There is a front and a back, so don't flip it around. The location on the 5810 is different from the 5600 and most others.

I will check the BLFC at some point but I am going to see what happens after setting the unit to regenerate every 400 gallons. I really think that is the issue. I am dealing with extraordinary hardness that was not initially calculated correctly by my installer. Also, I 100% confirm that all of the brine is being sucked out. I can see the bottom of the tank with a flashlight during the draw down cycle. I have run several regeneration cycles and hardness is coming down. Every 800 gallons for a regeneration cycle was just more than this system could handle and over time, it got overwhelmed. I will report back here after I have had time to test my hypothesis.

 

[Otto Mation]

I think the brine fill pins call for over 40 minutes of brine fill -- not an hour -- not that it matters since the safety float is controlling it.

You are correct.

 

[Otto Mation]

To test with your Hach 5-b, use 3 parts distilled and 1 part test water. Then multiply the drop count by 4. Or dilute as you choose, but keep the drop count 30 max.

@Reach4, this ia a great tip. Do I need to add a scoop of the powder for every extra part of distilled water? I am gussing yes.

 

[Reach4]

@Reach4, this ia a great tip. Do I need to add a scoop of the powder for every extra part of distilled water? I am gussing yes.

No extra scoops. You are still just testing the same volume of water-- the test tube volume. As I see it, you need a bigger clean container that you can dip the test tube into to fill the test tube. I guess you could partially fill the test tube to a mark you make, and top off with distilled from a wash bottle. In that case, you would give the square bottle an extra swirl to mix the possibly stratified water from the test tube.

The amount of powder is not that critical, however. The drops are the magic.

 

[Otto Mation]

No extra scoops. You are still just testing the same volume of water-- the test tube volume. As I see it, you need a bigger clean container that you can dip the test tube into to fill the test tube. I guess you could partially fill the test tube to a mark you make, and top off with distilled from a wash bottle. In that case, you would give the square bottle an extra swirl to mix the possibly stratified water from the test tube.

The amount of powder is not that critical, however. The drops are the magic.

Of course, I don't know what I was thinking. You only test a test tube full of the mix not the whole solution. Thanks.

 

[Otto Mation]

As a follow up, I think that I have this thing figured out. I retested the water with the Hach kit properly and it showed 178 grains of hardness going in to the softener. I now have the unit set to regenerate at every 350 gallons and I am seeing 10 grains of hardness at the faucet. I am hoping that I can get it lower as the hard water in the system gets flushed out. For the first time since we have lived here at least the soap lathers. I also pulled the float assembly out of the brine tank and saw that the float is completely adjustable and I moved it almost to the upper extent. I should be able to get many more gallons of water at the fill cycle which will mean more salt and capacity. I timed the old draw cycle to be 26 minutes which equals 13 gallons. After I fill the tank to the new level, I hope to have several more gallons to help me out. What are the chances that I can get this extremely hard well water down to 0-2 grains of hardness?

 

[Reach4]

I think that I have this thing figured out. I retested the water with the Hach kit properly and it showed 178 grains of hardness going in to the softener.

For that much hardness, dilute enough that there are no more than 30 drops when testing.

The high-hardness compensation would be extreme... so you may be regenerating really often.

In answer to your question, I don't know what you might be able to achieve.

 

[Otto Mation]

For that much hardness, dilute enough that there are no more than 30 drops when testing.

The high-hardness compensation would be extreme... so you may be regenerating really often.

In answer to your question, I don't know what you might be able to achieve.

That is what I did. That was a typo above and was supposed to be 174 grains. I used 5 tubes of distilled water with one tube of water out of the well. Swirled it around and poured one tube into the bottle and dropped in 29 drops to turn it blue. 29 x 6 = 174. I wonder if the magnesium content makes it higher hardness than the water analysis would lead me to believe.