Need help with Fleck 2510 / 3210 timer settings

[Reach4]

Magnesium is part of the hardness that the Hach kit tests for. They present the numbers as if it was all calcium carbonate.

I don't know why the difference between the 174 vs the 132 grains (2260 mg/l) that the water test measured.

 

[Otto Mation]

Final report. Since my last post, I was able to extend the brine draw tube a little deeper into the tank. I have now touching the bottom. Turns out there is grid plate in the brine tank. There is a lot of water hiding down there without salt taking up space. I now get a full one hour brine draw and it has made a big difference. I am still regenerating at every 350 gallons and with a one hour brine draw that is 30 gallons of brine and supposedly 90 lbs of salt although it is hard to tell if it is really using that much. I know that it seems extreme but I do have extremely hard water. I am now getting 4 grains of hardness out of the cold side and 6 grains out of the hot side, so the hot water tank is slowly flushing out the hard water. This is the best it has ever been. I am still hoping that this small amount of residual hardness is from scale which will slowly go away. Who knows, this may be as good as it gets, time will tell. I want to thank @Reach4 and @Bannerman for their input. Any additional input is appreciated.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

with a one hour brine draw that is 30 gallons of brine and supposedly 90 lbs of salt

I think you are referring to Brine Fill.

I'm surprised the brine pickup was raised from the bottom as the entire assembly is usually fastened to the brine well to prevent it from raising.

A high salt setting was recommended for an initial restorative regen cycle, not every cycle. With the entire capacity of the resin now having been restored, the amount of Brine Fill should be reduced for ongoing use. As previously specified, 24 lbs salt will regenerate 80K grains usable capacity which will need only 8 gallons entering the brine tank. Alternately, 32 lbs salt will regenerate 96K grains usable capacity which will require approx 11 gallons fill.

 

[Otto Mation]

I think you are referring to Brine Fill.

I'm surprised the brine pickup was raised from the bottom as the entire assembly is usually fastened to the brine well to prevent it from raising.

A high salt setting was recommended for an initial restorative regen cycle, not every cycle. With the entire capacity of the resin now having been restored, the amount of Brine Fill should be reduced for ongoing use. As previously specified, 24 lbs salt will regenerate 80K grains usable capacity which will need only 8 gallons entering the brine tank. Alternately, 32 lbs salt will regenerate 96K grains usable capacity which will require approx 11 gallons fill.

No I am referring to the brine draw. The brine tank fills in less time. This unit for whatever reason is able to fill the tank faster than it draws brine from the tank. The issue was that the draw tube was cut a little short. I was able to add length to the draw tube so that the pickup is placed at the bottom of the tank. I plan to make adjustments after I get my hardness stabilized to the lowest point and start backing off on the salt usage to get things optimized. Right now I am just enjoying water that isn't insanely hard.

 

[Bannerman]

The amount of Brine Fill establishes the amount of brine that is available. In post #27, you included a photo of the BLFC label which specifies the brine tank refill flow rate to occur during Brine Fill. Since each 1 gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt, then a 0.5 gpm fill rate will result in 1.5 lbs of salt being dissolved for each 1 minute of fill.

The Brine Draw and Slow Rinse rates are governed by the injector that is installed. Each injector size is given a different colour and number to make it easier to identify and reference its flow rate.

The BD & SR process is combined together since slow rinse flow through the injector will create suction on the brine line to draw brine into the media tank. Once all of the brine has been drawn, an air check valve (floating ball) will close the brine pickup opening to prevent air from being drawn into the softener. Slow Rinse flow will continue so as to push the brine through the resin bed and eventually rinse remaining brine residue from the resin. While the Brine Draw/Slow Rinse setting is typically 60 minutes, brine should be all drawn from the brine tank within approx 15 minutes of that time. If the remaining slow rinse time is insufficient, the initial soft water flowing to the home's fixtures will be salty directly after each regeneration cycle.

 

[Otto Mation]

Thank you for the detailed explanation and that is pretty much what my understanding of the process was. What I was unclear on was if the 0.5 gpm was the draw or the fill rate. All I knew is that it fills faster than it draws. As it is now, it does draw brine all the way through the BD & SR cycle. And the water is a bit salty but we do not drink it. We RO water for that. So once that I am convinced that I have all of the hard water flushed out of my system and have a low hardness level that I can use as a reference, I can start lowering the float on the brine tank a little at a time and let less brine water in and slowly reduce the draw amount incrementally to fine tune it. That will give me some slow rinse time without brine and eliminate the saltiness. Does that sound about right?

Edit: So now it is clear that I am not using 30 gallons of brine and 90 lbs of salt which is good news and somewhat comforting. What I need to do is time the fill to get that information. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Reach4]

As it is now, it does draw brine all the way through the BD & SR cycle. And the water is a bit salty but we do not drink it.

The brine should all be drawn out in the first 15 or 20 minutes of the BD. The remainder of the time rinses the salt out with a nice slow non-turbulant flow.

See page 29 of the manual for the expected brine draw rates for the various injectors. If yours is drawing much slower than expected, try cleaning.

Page 16 items 29 and 30 show the color code.

 

[Bannerman]

It's not surprising your water is salty since your current salt setting is so high. Once the settings are changed to correct the amount of brine for the capacity you are using, that should result in the proper amount of Slow Rinse which is approx 3/4 of the BD/SR time.

Although you are not drinking the salty water, it is flowing to your water heater and metal fixtures and so may result in issues if not soon corrected.

I can start lowering the float on the brine tank a little at a time and let less brine water in and slowly reduce the draw amount incrementally

Although I don't have experience with your specific controller, I expect your BF time setting is to be adjusted on the settings wheel which is why the refill rate is specified. The brine tank float & valve is generally only for safety, to prevent tank overflow if there should be an issue with the controller or power failure during Brine Fill.

 

[Otto Mation]

Okay, back to the drawing board. I will remove the pex extension that I put on the draw tube and run a regen and time water flow in and out of the brine tank and see what happens to the hardness when I get close to the next regen cycle. The brine fill is adjusted on the wheel It is currently set to 40 minutes which I now know is 20 gallons. It has always been shut off by the float valve so I never get 20 gallons in the tank. I have to regen 4 cubic feet of resin. What if I move the pins in the wheel to give me a much longer BD/SR time?

 

[Reach4]

I will remove the pex extension that I put on the draw tube

Why? I presume that is what gets the air check intake at the bottom of the brine tank. If so, leave the air check down there.

When testing, measure the depth to brine vs time during BD using a dipstick. Maybe every 5 minutes.

Do you remember the color of your injector?

 

[Bannerman]

I will remove the pex extension that I put on the draw tube

Why? Locating the brine pickup and Air Check to the bottom of the brine tank is proper. It should have been located there from the beginning.

What if I move the pins in the wheel to give me a much longer BD/SR time?

That will allow longer Slow Rinse, but you will continue to use an excessive and inefficient amount of salt for the capacity you are using.

It is currently set to 40 minutes which I now know is 20 gallons.

If you can reduce the BF time to 22 minutes, that will allow 11 gallons water into the brine tank to dissolve 33 lbs salt, which is more than you need to regenerate 96,000 grains of usable capacity. Salt efficiency = 96,000 / 33 = 2,909 grains/lb

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/resin-chart-jpg.53316/

 

[Otto Mation]

Okay thanks again guys.

 

[Otto Mation]

Do you remember the color of your injector?

Just saw this. Injector is white and was clean as new. I have backed the brine fill time to 22 minutes and ran a regen. Will need to run another one afterwards to make sure that I get a reasonable rinse time. It is currently drawing the brine tank down on the first run.

 

[Reach4]

With a #1 white injector, it should draw brine at about 0.3 gpm (from the graph). If we presume that you cut the brine fill back to 22 minutes giving 11 gallons of water, you would take about 37 minutes or so to draw the brine. (actually it could be a little longer). So increasing the BD to about 120 minutes, up from its current 60 minutes, would improve things and should get rid of that saltiness you are getting following a regen. You could go even longer (maybe 140).

You can monitor the drain line with your TDS meter to see when the salt has been washed out... I know your TDS is high anyway, but it should be significantly higher still while the salt is still being rinsed out.

Usually a higher number injector would have been chosen for your softener.

 

[Otto Mation]

Thanks Reach4. I just got off the phone with Fleck. They are sending me 1 gpm injector and valve to improve things even more.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks Reach4. I just got off the phone with Fleck. They are sending me 1 gpm injector and valve to improve things even more.

Dang. I would have preferred to have something in between. Ideally, it would take about 15 to 20 minutes to suck the brine. A slower flow is more efficient.

 

[Otto Mation]

With a #1 white injector, it should draw brine at about 0.3 gpm (from the graph). If we presume that you cut the brine fill back to 22 minutes giving 11 gallons of water, you would take about 37 minutes or so to draw the brine. (actually it could be a little longer). So increasing the BD to about 120 minutes, up from its current 60 minutes, would improve things and should get rid of that saltiness you are getting following a regen. You could go even longer (maybe 140).

You can monitor the drain line with your TDS meter to see when the salt has been washed out... I know your TDS is high anyway, but it should be significantly higher still while the salt is still being rinsed out.

Usually a higher number injector would have been chosen for your softener.

Consider this. With high sodium levels (774 PPM) to begin with and extreme hardness, over rinsing only reduces grain capacity from the regen. Maybe stay with the 0.5 gpm valve and injector and go with the 120 minute BD/SR and let it ride. That with a 12 gallon brine fill maxes out the dial. This may be the answer that I was looking for in the original question in post #1. Any flaw in this thinking?

 

[Reach4]

Consider this. With high sodium levels to begin with and extreme hardness, over rinsing only reduces grain capacity from the regen. Maybe stay with the 0.5 gpm valve and injector and go with the 120 minute BD/SR and let it ride.

Why do you call your current #1 white injector a 0.5 gpm valve? I was looking at the brine draw rate.
Is the one they are shipping you a #2 injector? That would seem nearly ideal.

In either case, I think monitoring the drain line to help choose the BD time makes sense. I understand not wanting to do a bunch of regenerations for just that, but I could see accelerating the regen for testing when one is due that night.

Your proposal does seem to have good merit.

 

[Otto Mation]

Why do you call your current #1 white injector a 0.5 gpm valve? I was looking at the brine draw rate.

I just generically referred to it as that because it is paired with the 0.5 gpm brine valve. It is the White #1 injector. Based on my observation you are correct on the brine draw rate. I am not sure what they plan to ship yet. They said that they would send me an email and costs for what is needed which I have not received yet.

 

[Reach4]

I just generically referred to it as that because it is paired with the 0.5 gpm brine valve. It is the White #1 injector. Based on my observation you are correct on the brine draw rate.

Don't try to pair the two. Some softeners with similar injectors will use a 0.5 DLFC and others a 0.125. They are fairly independent of each other.