My well riddles.

[Scott Graham]

Well is 300’ behind my house, Well depth is 140', Pump depth is 120', pump is a 1/2 HP Gould submersible. I have two 42 Gallon Pressure tanks. Pressure switch is set at 20/40.
About seven years ago our well trouble started. My wife was in the shower when the water stopped. Being a 1st time well owner all I knew to do was call a well guy. He comes out goes under the house and diagnoses a bad pressure switch. Replaces it come out from under the house and states the pumps not holding pressure. Out to the well he goes and replaces the ½ HP Gould with a ¾ HP Gould pump. We run the well for a few minutes at the garden house after about 5 minutes it cuts out again. At this point his diagnosis is that my well’s going dry. Gives me a $1500 bill for his 3 hours on site, New Pump, etc. and leaves.
Next up, I call a different well company out. They pumped the well down, let it rest 30 minutes and we pumped again. We got around 50 Gallons in 8 minutes (IIRC they calculated well recovery rate at 1.6GPM). Then the water stopped again. They only had a 3GPM dole valve so that’s what they installed. They recommended Acidizing the well. So we tried that and no improvement was seen. They also felt the ¾hp Pump was too large and tested my ½ hp pump and reinstalled it. Of course one of their other options was to drill a new well. So out came the drilling rig, they went two dry holes, packed up and left.
At this point we were financially drained. And have to live with a well that went out 6-7 times a day. We looked at water usage cycles trying to determine just how much we could use at a time without the well stopping and never found a consistent pattern. We tried but had no luck with turning the pump off (without the water out) for 30 minutes prior to bed, but we would typically awake to a water outage.
The only constants we found were.
1. When the water went out it stayed out (even for days), until we turned the pump of at the breaker and let it set at least 15 minutes.
2. Before / during rain’s it would act up more.
We lived like this for two years. Then all of a sudden, all of our well issues went away. At this point I was scared to use too much water, but after a few years of the well acting fine I started to lose my nervousness every time I turned a tap on. We could Shower, Do laundry and run the dishwasher all at the same time and the well kept up. That was until last Friday. I got home from work and while the water wasn’t out it was a very slow trickle. I turned the pump off, waited a few minutes and turned it on. I heard the water in the pipes. Saturday water usages was normal, until I was in the shower (laundry running), I noticed pressure was slowing down. So I got out of the shower, turned the pump off and waited 30 minutes. Turned it on and heard the water come in. I didn’t know it at the time but a few minutes after I turned the water on my daughter took a very long and luxurious shower (according to my son 40 minutes at least). No water outage. Sunday we had no water outages. But needless to say I’m scared. Last night our new washing machine (less than a month old) has a “No Fill†situation on cold cycle. It would fill hot/warm. I checked the fill hose filter and it was plugged with iron flakes. Of interest Since Friday afternoon it’s been raining VERY VERY hard.

Sorry for the long read, but I hope it is helpful. So any incite anyone has that may help solve my Well Riddles is appreciated.
1. Why do we have to turn the pump of (for at least 15 minutes)?
2. Why does the well’s recovery rate fluctuate so much?
3. Why does rain make the well act worse?

 

[Valveman]

When you pump a well dry, you usually have to shut off the pump to get the air to bubble out of the pump, so it can pump water again. If rain has any effect, your water should be muddy after a rain. Recovery rates do not usually come and go.

I think you have a toilet flapper leaking, and sometimes when the handle doesn’t get giggled after flushing, it runs and runs until your well is dry. Another time when you use water, the toilet has not been leaking, and you have plenty of water for a 40 minute shower. That is why it seems like the recovery rate is changing.

You could also use a storage or cistern tank with an additional booster pump. 1.6 GPM is 2300 gallon per day. You just have to store some of it in a tank, so you can use it at any flow rate desired. A 1,000 gallon storage tank would let you use 20 GPM for 50 minutes, or 10 GPM for 100 minutes. This is plenty long enough to supply the house with as much water as you want or need. The storage tank can be replenished all day long if needed, so you can use as much water as you need, when you need it.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Scott Graham]

You could also use a storage or cistern tank with an additional booster pump. 1.6 GPM is 2300 gallon per day. You just have to store some of it in a tank, so you can use it at any flow rate desired. A 1,000 gallon storage tank would let you use 20 GPM for 50 minutes, or 10 GPM for 100 minutes. This is plenty long enough to supply the house with as much water as you want or need. The storage tank can be replenished all day long if needed, so you can use as much water as you need, when you need it.

Thanks.

I've been considering this route. Of course $$$ is always tight. I hoping, I could rig up a system on the cheap. I have looked at the well manager system but it starts at $4k They are nice but not that nice

I have 3 Options for storage location.
1. In ground tank.
2. Barrel type storage I can get in the crawlspace.
3. In my Garage.

Honestly to me the best location is #2 in the crawlspace. Right along side all the water supply stuff.

As for the storage system. Is there a better way to do it then I'm thinking here?
Well Pump --> Pumtec (type device) --> Float Switch (inside Storage tank) --> Pump (What type?) --> Pressure Switch (with low flow cutoff) --> Bladder tanks.

Since I have access to 15 of 30 gallon barrels for free (450 Gallons of storage) and they will fit in my crawlspace hole. I'm very tempted to use them in series. I was thinking about mount them horizontally with bung on top and bottom. All in Parallel Inlet on top outlet on bottom.

Will I need the storage tank's vented?
What type of pump (size/hp) should I use to pump out of the storage tank? The water only has to be lifted about 9 foot.
Do I need to worry about these freezing in the winter? My bladder tanks don't.
I'd prefer to hang the barrels horizontally from the floor joists, however considering the each would weight 250.5 LBS full I don't think that may be a good idea. What do you think?

 

[Ballvalve]

Put a 2000 gallon tank outside. They don't freeze from volume and can be insulated. Do not hang water from the house.

And question # 4 - how does it feel to have a pack of "well pro's' come out, screw you for thousands and NOT fix anything but their bank account?
After reading 2 books on wells from the library, you would be miles ahead of them in knowledge.

That 1500$ for nothing would have got you the tank and booster and pumptek long ago.

 

[Scott Graham]

And question # 4 - how does it feel to have a pack of "well pro's' come out, screw you for thousands and NOT fix anything but their bank account?
After reading 2 books on wells from the library, you would be miles ahead of them in knowledge.

That 1500$ for nothing would have got you the tank and booster and pumptek long ago.

Any suggestion / help on the booster pump? maybe something like this
http://cgi.****.com/3-4HP-0-8HP-wat...559?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3f083fa1c7

Everything else I have a handle on. Heading to the store tonight as need a shovel to start digging the whole for the cistern with

Horrible, they really made me lose respect for most "contractors". However Septic guys have redeemed themselves time and time again. I had one honey wagon quote $120 to digout and pump my tank. Expeciting it to be 1200 Gallon. he spent 4 hours digging down in frozen soil. then found I had an 1800 gallon tank. he had to suck it our go dump and come back. I was expecting to get a large bill. he said "I told you $120 so $120 it is". I gave him $200 as he earned it.

 

[Ballvalve]

The best booster pump is a small 1/2 or so submersible inside the tank. Dont lay it down.

They make a motor OVER pump that valveman mentioned, pumps down to about 4" - I'll look for a link.

Septic guys have to be pretty honest because the crap is either in or out of the tank. Well dopes can blow smoke like an Afghani lawnmower salesman.

Here is a good discussion: http://www.wellmanager.com/pump_chamber-limitations.htm

http://www.rainfilters.com/rainfilters-rainwater-collection-pumps.html

 

[LLigetfa]

They make a motor OVER pump that valveman mentioned, pumps down to about 4"

Some pump manufacturers insist that submersible pumps not be placed in a vessel withouth a sleeve. A sleeve would draw the water from below the motor, forcing an adequate stream of water to flow past the motor to cool it.

 

[Ballvalve]

Apparently these cistern pumps are designed to not require a sleeve due to the design.

 

[LLigetfa]

Apparently these cistern pumps are designed to not require a sleeve due to the design.

Yes, I understand that. What I meant to convey is that a traditional motor-on-bottom casing pump can be used in a vessel with a sleeve and as such draw from the bottom.

 

[Scott Graham]

Update. No outage since Saturday. Today as a test I ran the hose for 1.5 hours without interruption and was pulling 5 Gpm before the bladder tanks dropped down and the well kicked on at which point I was getting 3gpm. Only change, I have noted is the rain has not been anywhere near as heavy as Friday/Saturday. my entire yard had 2-4" standing water on those days.

Thanks for the links and info everyone!

 

[Masterpumpman]

Valveman said it best. It sounds like you have water running somewhere unnecessarly, like an occasional running commode. In the past you have unfortunately had unqualified people (drillers and installers) that didn't properly diagnose the problem. By selling you a larger pump only made your problem bigger.
Valveman didn't tell you that they http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html sells a "Cycle Sensor" that shuts of the pump at the first indication of no water and can be adjusted to automatically come back on at a preset time. This would save your pump from damage and running dry.
The best solution is to install a "Cycle Sensor" , a float switch and a 1000 gallon (or larger) non pressurized plastic storage tank in the ground with a pump in the storage tank and a "Pside-Kick" (a cycle stop valve product). Installing this system is not complicated and except for burying the storage tank can be done by a DYI. I suggest that you contact Cycle Stop Valves as I'm sure that they will be happy to assist you or contact me.

 

[Ballvalve]

Franklin also makes the well respected pumptek that at 100 to 200$ has saved thousands of pumps, and also senses short cycling, with adjustable off times and auto reset.

 

[Scott Graham]

Installed the pumptec today. Found it online for $169 shipped. I did find it for $145 elsewhere but would have had to have paid shipping and it was the other side of the US. Nice smooth easy installation. I tested it on the 2 minute setting and it worked great, I have it set for 10 minutes and will adjust as necessary.

Until I can afford a larger buried tank. I'm going to go with a this plan.
I found this 250 Gallon tank (food Grade) locally for $50

It's going into my garage. I'm going to put in a Float Switch to fill it.
for house hold water supply I'm going with a 2nd Pumptec and after much searching the most economical and good rated pump setup I can find is Northern Industrial's Shallow Well Pump — 1 HP, Model# JGP12001CHT for $159.00

If I can't get a larger underground tank installed before winter I'll build an insulated room in my garage for the tank. and run a heat duct to it. I do like the idea of having it where I have easy access for cleanout etc.

My only remaining question is on the pumptec. would you rather go longer well recovery time. ie 30 minutes, or shorter time 10-15 minutes?

 

[Valveman]

30 minutes will work. It is amazing how good they can make those little $159 pump look. What matters is on the inside. I see lots of these thrown in a pile behind well houses, still looking just as good. The less your well makes, the more storage you need.

 

[Scott Graham]

lost water today. 1st time since the pumptec was installed. I've watched it operate and have seen it trip Solid Yellow load light (manual says Drywell), then seen it reset. However, today after the water went out and waiting an hour and still not having water I went under the house to find the Pumtec's Load Light Flashing. The manual says this indicates an overload. I reset the breaker and everythings working fine again.

So where do I start troubleshooting this "overload"?
Thanks