LaurelD
New Member
Due to a foundation retrofit, I had to relocate 8 rickety aging 30 gallon water tank style heaters in my 4 story apartment building. The last time I changed them out, I got some bad Rheems with thermocouples that needed changing all the time. Major manufacture malfunction.
I decided to move my water heater room to a tighter space and go tankless, and I turned the old utility room into an additional studio apartment, making good money for me. I thought, I'm so so smart. And I am partial to the Takagi brand, so I installed 8 brand new condensing units in the center of the basement of the building. Re-routed all the plumbing. It cost me $50,000. I'm so smart, remember? Insert rim shot and Womp-Womp here.
Well. Immediately the tenant complaints started. The 3rd and 4th floors have to wait as long as 4-5 minutes for hot water to arrive, they have the cold sandwich effect during prime shower time in the morning--when all the apartments are firing their tankless units. Even the 1st and 2nd floors wait 1 to 1.5 minutes for hot.
I do have return lines for the top floor apartments, but not the lower floors. I have not reattached them to the tankless. Doing so is my first dilemma due to cost. But the water pressure is much worse, too. And that cold water sandwich, when everybody is showering and gets a burst of cold water when the city gas fluctuates, isn't good news either.
I am ashamed, because I should have known better--I have a long history of installing these units in my 2 unit or 3 unit remodels. 8 unit 4 stories was a bridge too far. Meantime, the cost of the increased water use is insane too, here in San Francisco. There went the new rent I was getting from the studio apartment. And then some. But mainly it's the inconvenience! I feel bad for my tenants.
I may have been better better off with Navian with its buffer tank, or Rinnai with its recirc pump. But it's too late now.
I know I can solve the problems--anything is solvable if you throw money at it--but I wonder if it's worth it? How much money must I throw at this?
So I have two pieces of advice I really need.
1) If I keep the tankless units, I need pumps on each return line, and maybe to install more return lines or those comfort valves under the sinks of the apartments without dedicated return lines. Which brand and method is best?
I am partial to the Grundfos with the timer clock, reattaching to the cold line. But that practically guarantees a cold water sandwich each and every time. So then, do I install a buffer tank too? For each tankless? What are we talking here, another $3000 for 8 pumps, $3000 for the buffer tanks, and $5,000 for labor? EACH? That's $11-12k? And now, I'm using more room than the old system, and more electric and gas--which the tenants pay, but whatever. I'll have to dig out more space in the basement. $XX
2. OR, should I walk away from tankless and go back to old fashioned 30 gallon water heaters? They worked fine for 30 years before the last batch of Rheem, no waiting for water, good pressure. I just changed them out every ten years, and kept thermocouples on hand, every so often. Any brand you guys like? I figure I can re install them for about $7k-8k. I still have to dig out more space, but this is a better system?
I hate saying good by to that amazing rack of Tankless. My plumber is an artist, but he's dumb. He shoulda told me..... Whatever.
HELP
Sorry for the long post. Just want you all to have the facts.
I decided to move my water heater room to a tighter space and go tankless, and I turned the old utility room into an additional studio apartment, making good money for me. I thought, I'm so so smart. And I am partial to the Takagi brand, so I installed 8 brand new condensing units in the center of the basement of the building. Re-routed all the plumbing. It cost me $50,000. I'm so smart, remember? Insert rim shot and Womp-Womp here.
Well. Immediately the tenant complaints started. The 3rd and 4th floors have to wait as long as 4-5 minutes for hot water to arrive, they have the cold sandwich effect during prime shower time in the morning--when all the apartments are firing their tankless units. Even the 1st and 2nd floors wait 1 to 1.5 minutes for hot.
I do have return lines for the top floor apartments, but not the lower floors. I have not reattached them to the tankless. Doing so is my first dilemma due to cost. But the water pressure is much worse, too. And that cold water sandwich, when everybody is showering and gets a burst of cold water when the city gas fluctuates, isn't good news either.
I am ashamed, because I should have known better--I have a long history of installing these units in my 2 unit or 3 unit remodels. 8 unit 4 stories was a bridge too far. Meantime, the cost of the increased water use is insane too, here in San Francisco. There went the new rent I was getting from the studio apartment. And then some. But mainly it's the inconvenience! I feel bad for my tenants.
I may have been better better off with Navian with its buffer tank, or Rinnai with its recirc pump. But it's too late now.
I know I can solve the problems--anything is solvable if you throw money at it--but I wonder if it's worth it? How much money must I throw at this?
So I have two pieces of advice I really need.
1) If I keep the tankless units, I need pumps on each return line, and maybe to install more return lines or those comfort valves under the sinks of the apartments without dedicated return lines. Which brand and method is best?
I am partial to the Grundfos with the timer clock, reattaching to the cold line. But that practically guarantees a cold water sandwich each and every time. So then, do I install a buffer tank too? For each tankless? What are we talking here, another $3000 for 8 pumps, $3000 for the buffer tanks, and $5,000 for labor? EACH? That's $11-12k? And now, I'm using more room than the old system, and more electric and gas--which the tenants pay, but whatever. I'll have to dig out more space in the basement. $XX
2. OR, should I walk away from tankless and go back to old fashioned 30 gallon water heaters? They worked fine for 30 years before the last batch of Rheem, no waiting for water, good pressure. I just changed them out every ten years, and kept thermocouples on hand, every so often. Any brand you guys like? I figure I can re install them for about $7k-8k. I still have to dig out more space, but this is a better system?
I hate saying good by to that amazing rack of Tankless. My plumber is an artist, but he's dumb. He shoulda told me..... Whatever.
HELP
Sorry for the long post. Just want you all to have the facts.
