Issues w/AS Town Square 2pc toilet overflowing from BOWL??

[loves2read]

Did guest bath remodel about 7 mo ago...used licensed plumber...installed AS Town Square 2 PC toilet--low-flow 1.28 w/3" flapper...seemed no issues w/replacing older toiler with this one...minor complaints that sometimes waste doesn't flush off bowl and have to brush...sometimes float would stick and have to jiggle handle or move float to get water to stop flowing.

Sunday discovered water was overflowing from bowl after one of us used it---
Did not discover it though until water was outside bathroom in hall and other areas...
after we stopped water at wall, used shop vac and towels to deal w/standing water and wet carpets. Then Husband tried to find out why bowl overflowed.
Flapper would not close--tried holding it down but didn't want to stay...Plunged bowl very hard several times and finally had 2-3 big bolus of air come up...then flapper would stay down and action would work properly...

Husband changed out OE flapper yesterday and we have reclamation company's fans and dehumidifiers out drying up carpet and Sheetrock...will take 3-5 days to dry out before we can replace baseboards and some damaged flooring but no new Sheetrock == at least we think...

Question is how often does something like this happen???
Is it THIS toilet/design that is problamatic so that we need to stay in room until flush is stopped???
Was changing flapper good enough--
My husband says that after he switched them out he deliberately held the handle down to allow air in that line and the NEW flapper would still close properly--unlike the other OE one that would stay open when he led air down the egress...

We have Kohler Memoirs stately in our master bath for over a year--it is a low-flow toilet but obviously different mfg and maybe internal design for all I know...and while the float sticks at times, there has been no issue with the water not flowing through the bowl and out sewer line....

I just don't want to have to worry every time someone might flush that toilet that we will have another episode like this--
Is there any claim to be made against American Standard based on other owners w/same problem?
I doubt there is--just asking for insurance info...

 

[Jadnashua]

If your toilet bowl and sewer line is clear, other than the waste of water, the bowl should never overflow. That it did says that either there was a clog in the toilet or in the drain line from it. If they needed to stack wax rings, things might have shifted during the install, and partially blocked the toilet outlet, making it easier to clog. If they used a single wax ring with a plastic funnel, in some toilet flanges there isn't enough room for the funnel, and pressing it in place can cause it to partially close off the outlet...often, they're more trouble than their worth.

As to why the flapper didn't close, first thing to check is if it catches on anything (the filler valve, or overflow, or ?). The slack in the chain to the flapper valve must be within limits...too much slack, and it can get caught underneath (and maybe not pull it up the proper distance)...too little, and it might not always have enough length to allow the flapper valve to fully seat.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WJcandee]

I have no personal experience with this model, but I can tell some things from looking at its documentation.

First, this is a standard single-flush-valve, single-flapper gravity toilet setup. And it has a standard Fluidmaster fill valve.

So let's get a few things straight. The flapper on the flush valve should have zero effect on whether the fill valve continues to run after the tank is full. Obviously, if the flapper never closes, so the tank never refills, because the flapper is open, the fill valve will continue to run. The fill valve's job is to keep running water into the tank until the water in the tank reaches a certain level, after which the fill valve will shut off. The point in the tank that the fill valve shuts off the water should be a bit below (say 1/4" to 1/2") the top of the overflow riser. If the thing is set to shut off right at the overflow riser or above it, then, of course, it's not going to shut off reliably, but that doesn't sound like your problem.

Even if the fill valve runs away (i.e. sticks and keeps filling after the tank is full), the overflow water should run down the overflow riser and into the bowl. If the toilet isn't clogged, the overflow water running into the bowl would just flow through the trapway and down the drain.

If you look at the diagram below (which calls the overflow riser the overflow "tube" -- same thing), you can see that more water in the bowl is just going to raise the water level in the bowl a bit, which is going to run over the "weir" in the diagram and down the drain. What causes a "flush" is a rapid infusion of water into the bowl, which fills the trapway suddenly and completely, creating a siphon in the trapway which pulls all the water and waste up over the weir and out of the bowl, ending in the familiar gurgle, after which a percentage of the water from the fill valve goes through the refill hose and bypasses the flapper by going down the overflow riser, refilling the bowl while the rest of the water from the fill valve goes into the tank, filling it, after which the fill valve shuts off and stops refilling the bowl and the tank. Anything other than a big rush of water won't cause a flush, it will just dribble over the top of the weir.

So, in short, if the fill valve sticks open and the flapper is closed, nothing should happen other than you waste water until you unstick the fill valve.

Your description of having to push the flapper shut is odd. Once the level of water in the tank goes down to a certain level, the flapper should close. And if the tank runs down all the way, there is nothing to hold the flapper open, so it should close. It requires water around it to stay open. But if the new flapper works and the old flapper didn't, then okay, whatever you say. Regardless, that should solve the problem of the toilet continuing to run because the flapper hasn't sealed.

There's no magic as to what goes on inside the toilet. The tank fills from the fill valve and the flapper opens and closes based on whether the chain is pulled and whether it is sitting in a certain depth of water. After the water runs below that depth, it's gonna close. What happens in the bowl is totally-unrelated to what happens in the tank. One doesn't affect the other, except insofar as water running into the bowl has to go somewhere. And if the bowl isn't clogged, you can run water into it all day long and it's going to go down the drain.

In short, it sounds like your problem required two things to have happened: (1) The bowl was clogged and (2) after the bowl was clogged, the flapper did not seal, either because the handle/chain held it open or because of some defect that I don't understand. There are cases where the flapper doesn't completely seal and dribbles water past if if, for example, it has partially dissolved owing to the homeowner's use of a chlorine bowl cleaner cake (1000-flushes, etc.) in the tank, or if it for some reason wasn't installed correctly and doesn't drop straight down on the flush valve seat, or if gunk has developed around the flush valve seat -- none of which should have happened in 7 months (other than the chlorine issue).

I would get that sticky fill valve replaced. If your plumber does it, he's 99 times out of 100 going to want to use another Fluidmaster 400A valve, which should work reliably, although I prefer the Korky 528, which is easier for a do-it-yourselfer to install in my view, and easier to maintain, and has a fully-contained float mechanism that isn't going to hang on something like the Fluidmaster can. But in a factory install, there should be enough clearance around the Fluidmaster for the float on it not to hang on anything. It does tend to pop up at the end to shut off the water; it doesn't rise smoothly with the water, so maybe that's what your husband was talking about, which is typical of that valve and not an issue as long as it shuts off every time.

So the short answer is "No, it shouldn't overflow again", assuming that everything you can see is functioning properly. And it shouldn't overflow at all, ever, if the drain line is clear and the toilet isn't clogged, no matter how long the tank runs. But, then again, it shouldn't have overflowed in the first place to the extent you describe.

I assume that you have called the plumber who installed it to discuss. What does he say?

 

[loves2read]

Thanks you for both comments.
Re the wax rings--I think he used only one if I remember correctly, but I doubt there is any way to make sure w/o pulling the toilet and checking. When my husband noticed the flapper not seating properly that prior time the bowl was filling, he didn't mention anything about the chain fouling the operation...and when he tried to close the flapper and it wouldn't stay down, it looks like he would have noticed if the chain was between flapper and hole...that seems obvious fix.

My husband spoke to the office mgr at the plumbing company yesterday--not to the plumber who did the actual installation.
He told my husband that with low-flow toilets--which this one is---IF the handle is held down longer than necessary, like if you know you have more waste to flush through and hold it longer, then it is possible for air to also enter through the flush valve opening (because I guess there is not enough water coming in to fill the opening after the initial flush)....
and enough air can act as blockage. Husband said that after he installed the new flapper, he deliberately held the handle down longer to see if the flapper would reseat properly and this one did---not sure what model he bought/used--but it was different color than the OE American Standard he took out.

I understand that this problem technically should not happen if there is no blocking of the drain line.
We have two homes--one in TX as well as the one here in FL where the overflow happened.
When we are in FL, we have friend who goes to the TX house periodically and will run water through the bathroom fixtures and flush the toilets. One time she did not wait to ensure all toilets had stopped their actions. One toilet float hung up and water ran until we got home days later...we had a $700 water bill----but no water damage because it all went into the sewer.
She learned not to leave too soon.

Our daughter and SIL live next door to us here in FL. When we are in TX, they come over periodically and flush our toilets and run water through sinks and tubs and check the HVAC is working ok and other things. But maybe they haven't been coming over often enough. Is there an issue if water gets too low in toilet bowls or isn't run through a sink or tub so that unwanted/unnecessary air can get into the house plumbing system and cause some "out of balance/pressurization" issue?
I ask because two weeks ago (more than a week after we came back from TX), my husband was taking shower in master bath and was using the main shower head and also had turned on the hand-held unit on adjacent wall. I went in to get dirty clothes for laundry and we both noticed air bubbling up in toilet bowl.
There was no water running in the toilet; no recent flush--- but several large air bubbled up from bottom of bowl. We both heard and saw them...first and only time that has happened although he has used both the shower heads on other occasions since that bath was remodeled more than year ago. And there was no noticible accumulation of water in shower. This is large, walk-in shower with conventional center drain.

We don't want to call plumber out on what could be a wild goose chase if it was an isolated incident. But if there is a problem that needs to be fixed beyond replacing the flapper, we want to know and take care of it.
I really appreciate your time. I know I include lot of info that might not be relevant: the curse of being a retired English teacher, I guess.

 

[Reach4]

But maybe they haven't been coming over often enough. Is there an issue if water gets too low in toilet bowls or isn't run through a sink or tub so that unwanted/unnecessary air can get into the house plumbing system and cause some "out of balance/pressurization" issue?

It is normal for the drain system to have air in it. Vents are used to let air in and out of the drain system on purpose. In a proper system, the problem with the water in the bowl getting too low is that smelly sewer gasses can get into the house.

I ask because two weeks ago (more than a week after we came back from TX), my husband was taking shower in master bath and was using the main shower head and also had turned on the hand-held unit on adjacent wall. I went in to get dirty clothes for laundry and we both noticed air bubbling up in toilet bowl.
There was no water running in the toilet; no recent flush--- but several large air bubbled up from bottom of bowl.

I am not a pro. To me, that would possibly indicate a belly in the piping that lets water settle at a low spot and impede the flow of air. That could be accompanied by a vent system problem. In your case, the washer water added volume upstream of the belly, and that pressurized the air. The air burped out of the toilet. If your bathroom sink uses an AAV (air admittance valve) rather than a roof vent, that cannot release air if it is working properly. A roof vent could release pressure that could develop with a belly. Instead of a belly, there could be a clog that lets some sewage go through but keeps a fair amount of standing water.

My description could be wrong. It will be interesting to see any alternate theories. Getting the drain path checked by a camera could look for a problem.

 

[Jadnashua]

As was said earlier...unless the toilet or the drain line is clogged, the bowl should never overflow. Getting bubbles up through the toilet, to me anyway, implies the line was clogged, and was the air escaping as what little water did fit into the line displaced that air, and it has to go somewhere. Normally, that would go out the vent line, which may imply that line is clogged (or not installed properly) as well as the drain.

 

[WJcandee]

And as for what the person at the plumbing company told you, it is stupid and wrong. And self-serving, of course.