LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
No, the pre-charge should be 2 PSI less than the turn-on setting.
Iron and manganese removal
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Bannerman
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LLigetfa, thanks! I knew what I meant but it didn't come out that way.
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Wow. I'm learning all kinds of stuff here. I had to google some of the language you're using just to understand what your saying. I checked the pressure with the water in the tank and it's the same as the pressure gauge switch. Thanks for shedding light on that. The well pump is as existed when I purchased the house. I had a new pressure tank put in right away because the previous tank had failed. Being a total newbie, when I called around a 32 gallon tank seemed comparable to a hot water tank in size. I laugh now and I realize why my friends with wells say their tank is much bigger. The link you shared helped me a lot with that. With the current situation I'm wondering if the differential was changed at some point by the original owner for some reason. That is my next step to check. I also wonder about the tank I had installed. If the pressure was at 24, would that indicate that the installer didn't charge it correctly? That's assuming the tanks come at a certain preset and need to be adjusted to your conditions, just a wild guess. So what I'm figuring out here Bannerman, is that I need to kick my differential up to 60, (I'll check out the factory preset numbers on the lid) run a few cycles and see how everything is going, empty the tank check the pressure, I had it pumped up to 24 but the pressure should actually be at 38 if the low end of my cycle is 40. On the you tube video I found it said to use a compressor which I get that because I did a lot of pumping with a bike pump to get that tank from 16 to 24 yesterday! lol Does all of that sound right? Thanks so much for all of your help, I really do appreciate it!
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I put 2 and a hair turns on the differential nut and I have the pressure for off now set at 60 with kick in at 40. That did up the discharge of water up to 3 1/2 gallons before the switch kicks in to pump water. What's odd is that when I check the pressure in my tank, it is still registering 51 lb when the pressure gauge is reading 60. By all the discussion my thoughts are that I still need to drain the tank, pump the pressure to 38 lb in the tank, then turn the pump back on. Sound correct?
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Bannerman
Well-Known Member
A bike tire pump will work OK. I anticipate you wouldn't want to buy a compressor for an infrequent need.
As a well pump will heat up the most when starting, the pressure tank's usable capacity should be large enough to cause the pump to run at least 60 seconds once started. When the tank is too small, the pump will short cycle, resulting in multiple short start/stop cycles when only a trickle of water is being used, leading to excessive heat buildup within the pump. Sufficient tank capacity will extend the lifespan of the pump as the frequency of start cycles will be reduced, and the longer pump run time will ensure any heat generated will dissipate into the water flowing through the pump.
Since you are now increasing the system pressure to 40/60, the tank precharge will need to be increased to 38 psi. Pressure tank precharge is always measured and adjusted with the system at 0 psi and with no water within the tank.
As a well pump will heat up the most when starting, the pressure tank's usable capacity should be large enough to cause the pump to run at least 60 seconds once started. When the tank is too small, the pump will short cycle, resulting in multiple short start/stop cycles when only a trickle of water is being used, leading to excessive heat buildup within the pump. Sufficient tank capacity will extend the lifespan of the pump as the frequency of start cycles will be reduced, and the longer pump run time will ensure any heat generated will dissipate into the water flowing through the pump.
Since you are now increasing the system pressure to 40/60, the tank precharge will need to be increased to 38 psi. Pressure tank precharge is always measured and adjusted with the system at 0 psi and with no water within the tank.
Is your tire gauge capable of indicating higher than 51 psi?
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I agree that the air pressure gauge could be limited range. You could also take your air pressure gauge to you tire store, and ask them how the calibration looks too.
I think you may want to buy a new 0-100 water pressure gauge. Either clean the nipple to the gauge or replace the nipple with a new brass nipple while you are at it. Your water pressure gauge may be OK, but changing that old gauge proactively is not a waste. Alternatively, get a garden hose thread pressure gauge to compare to the 1/4 NPT pressure gauge. Those are cheap and readily available.
While my 1/4 inch NPT pressure gauge is not liquid-filled, my next one will be. The the price premium is not that much.
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Bannerman
Well-Known Member
IF the tire gauge is capable of indicating more than 50 psi, then with only the 24 psi tank precharge, I suspect the P tank bladder maybe stretched to capacity which maybe limiting the amount of air compression possible. Increasing the precharge to 38 psi, should reduce the amount of bladder stretch as the operating pressure range will be within the bladder's design parameter so the air charge pressure should then correctly measure 60 psi when the system pressure is also 60 psi.
The usual benefit of a glycerine filled gauge is to dampen the indicator needle movement when the gauge is exposed to vibration.
The usual benefit of a glycerine filled gauge is to dampen the indicator needle movement when the gauge is exposed to vibration.
Yes. I have also seen claims like this in https://www.fluidpowerworld.com/when-should-you-use-liquid-filled-gauges/
Most liquid-filled gauges use glycerin to damp the pulsations, though in more extreme environments, silicone or mineral oil may be used to withstand temperature extremes. This liquid also serves to protect the internal components of the gauge, preventing friction and wear by adding a layer of lubrication. This in turn reduces corrosion by serving as a barrier to other contaminants that mat come in contact with the gauge.
You guys rock! Imagine my laughter when I discovered that my tire gauge only went to 50 psi. Glad I have the capacity to laugh at my learning curve! I found a digital gauge at my local building supply that said they were accurate to 99lb +_1. I went through the motions again. I drained the tank and was surprised that it only had about 9 gallons now after all of the changes have been made. I'm showing a picture. I checked the pressure in the tank and pumped it up a couple pounds to 38. I filled the tank, switch cuts off at 60, rests about 59. I checked the pressure in the tank and it registered 57.5. I discharged about 6 gallons when the switch got to 40 and kicked on till it cut off again at 60. Making the changes doubled the amount of water discharged before the pump kicks in. It seems like everything is reading now as it should. I wonder though if the changes limited the capacity that the tank will hold since there was only around 9 gallons when I drained it. Thanks so much for all of your help. I really appreciate it!
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9 is much better. You had too little precharge before, and you were stretching the diaphragm or bladder more than ideal for longevity.
At least part of the 58.8 at the water pressure gauge and the 57.5 at the air pressure gauge could be due to the altitude difference of the top of the diaphragm and the gauge. Tension on the diaphragm could play a part. And difference in the calibration of the two gauges can play a part.
Going forward, check your precharge air once per year if you bought an economy tank. If you bought a tank with an all-butyl diaphragm, you can go longer. If in doubt, see how much you lose in a year, and set your schedule accordingly. How much loss is too little to bother with? I don't know. I would think 1 psi would be a reasonable number.
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Bannerman
Well-Known Member
The tank capacity chart previously linked, shows 8.6 gallons drawdown for a 32 gallon tank operating at 40/60 psi. Although your tank brand and model may not be identical to those referred to in the chart, your actual result is similar.
As the chart shows, some additional drawdown capacity can be gained if the system pressure is reduced to a lower pressure range. That could be a reason why the previous owner used lower pressure settings.
As the chart shows, some additional drawdown capacity can be gained if the system pressure is reduced to a lower pressure range. That could be a reason why the previous owner used lower pressure settings.
You guys are terrific! I am amazed and I appreciate the amount of knowledge and skill that's on this forum. I feel much more confident now that my tank and pump are working correctly and I'll be keeping an eye on it. I'm wondering what kind of a demand can be put on this tank considering it's size, since it will be going into real service soon. It seems a shower or even back washing a softener tank would kick on the pump several times. Is that normal or are larger tanks a better option for longevity? Is there a link you can direct me to investigate this? Thanks so much! I appreciate your help!
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Correct on all counts. Normal, and bigger is better.
It should last for quite a while as it is, but if you replace it in the future I would go bigger. Also wider vs tall and skinny are better for longevity. So your new tank might be a WX-250 (44 gal) or even a WX-302 if you like a little overkill. But that may be 15- 20 years from now. If you do go bigger, note that tanks bigger than 32 gallons have 1.25 inch inputs rather than 1 inch NPT that yours have.
The good news is that your tank has an all-butyl diaphragm. So maybe check it every 2 to 5 years.
Thanks so much for all your help! I really appreciate it. I am more confident with the well tank and feel I can move on now to figure out a treatment system. Thanks again! Have a great day!
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
A bigger concern is, how long does the pump need to run to raise the pressure from 40 to 60 psi (= ~9 gallons) while no water is being consumed? A single shower head will typically flow 2.5 gpm so once the pump kicks-in, it will likely continue to run continuous for an extended amount of time while the shower is being used.
A softener with a 10" resin tank (1.5 ft3) will typically use no more than 2.4 gpm during a portion of regeneration whereas a 12" diameter (2 ft3) unit will need 3.5 gpm.
Any type of backwashing filter (iron or sulphur removal, carbon, acid neutralizer, etc) will require substantially higher flow rates for backwashing due to the specific needs and weight of each media.
I just figured out that I have 9 gpm coming from my well. Should I check this again now that I've made adjustments to the pressure switch and tank? The tag on the breaker box says a submersible pump at 10 gpm but I figure 9 was close and probably more accurate when I checked it. Should I recheck? Exactly what you stated is what I'm afraid of. It just seems that when I place demand on this configuration that my pump will run constantly. hmmm. I just don't know. Thanks for your help!
LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
Running constantly is a good thing. Cycling on and off repeatedly is bad.
I timed that it takes 42 seconds with no demand on water for the switch to cycle the pump from 40 to 60 psi. Last I checked yesterday it took 6 gallons of water to discharge when the pump kicked in. Thanks for your help! Have a great day!
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
As I understood, 6 gallons was prior to all of the setting adjustments being completed. You then mentioned "9 gallons when I drained it" which I understood to mean 9 gallons drained to reduce the system pressure from 60 psi (pump shut-off) to 40 psi (pump kick-in). The 9 gallons you indicated, is close-enough to the 8.6 gallons drawdown specified in the chart.
Your pressure tank utilizes 2 separate sections separated by a rubber bladder or diaphragm. One section will contain air and the other section will hold water in varying amounts. Since the air section is pre-charged to 38 psi, there should be only a relatively small quantity of water within the water section when the pump kicks-in at 40 psi. Regardless of the quantity of water the 2 psi represents which will remain constant in the tank, the drawdown (usable) quantity should be close to 9 gallons, not 6 gallons.
https://images.app.goo.gl/TCAsH6jnd1aRytM38
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