Iron and manganese removal

[Jrland]

Hi all,

I've been researching softeners and iron and manganese filters for a while now and I don't feel much further along than when I started. I see a lot about the Pro Ox filter but I have a couple of concerns the first being that there is a moving part inside the tank. Another is that it uses 100 gallons of water for backwashing. It's getting really tough to find any other systems that would work. My tests came up
Iron 3.4
Manganese .07
Ph 7.51
Hardness as CaCO3 481

Does anyone have any recommendations of systems I could look at? Thanks so much for you help.

 

[ditttohead]

Iron reduction is typically more complex than most so called professionals can understand. Regional variances in water will make iron reduction equipment work in one location and not in another even though the water looks nearly identical. I highly recommend designing iron reduction systems should be designed as a scalable system. All in one designs tend to leave a lot of potential for failure or poor performance.

By reading your water report, as limited as it is, a katalox light or similar media would be advisable. Air injection with a micronizer will likely be adequate but budget in an extra $1000 for h2o2 injection should it be needed in the future in case the KL system with micronizer I not adequate.

If you have any bacterial issues I would recommend chlorine over H2o2.

Your iron level is a little higher than I would recommend for AIO, but we have many customers using this technology at over 5 ppm. If you are going to try AIO, then I would recommend ozone AIO.

We have some customers using softening for this level of iron. This is not recommended but technically it will work.

I can see where your confusion comes in, unfortunately it is not as simple as some companied try to make it.

I am trying to make a "guideline" chart that will be nothing more than a wild guess opinion piece on iron levels, pH, etc, and what treatment method is recommended. Unfortunately the opinions of the best minds in this industry all agree that we cant agree.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jrland]

Iron reduction is typically more complex than most so called professionals can understand. Regional variances in water will make iron reduction equipment work in one location and not in another even though the water looks nearly identical. I highly recommend designing iron reduction systems should be designed as a scalable system. All in one designs tend to leave a lot of potential for failure or poor performance.

By reading your water report, as limited as it is, a katalox light or similar media would be advisable. Air injection with a micronizer will likely be adequate but budget in an extra $1000 for h2o2 injection should it be needed in the future in case the KL system with micronizer I not adequate.

If you have any bacterial issues I would recommend chlorine over H2o2.

Your iron level is a little higher than I would recommend for AIO, but we have many customers using this technology at over 5 ppm. If you are going to try AIO, then I would recommend ozone AIO.

We have some customers using softening for this level of iron. This is not recommended but technically it will work.

I can see where your confusion comes in, unfortunately it is not as simple as some companied try to make it.

I am trying to make a "guideline" chart that will be nothing more than a wild guess opinion piece on iron levels, pH, etc, and what treatment method is recommended. Unfortunately the opinions of the best minds in this industry all agree that we cant agree.

For Sure it is very confusing and once the cookies start adding up on my computer it gets harder to find info. Once I cleared the cookies on my computer I found a lot of helpful information from Penn State and a couple other states had good info. My water doesn't seem bad although I know I need to chlorinate my well to kill the coliform. I want to do what I can about the manganese so I can do laundry and I thought I would go with a UV for insurance and wouldn't mind a small RO under the sink for drinking water and ice cubes. I'll post a picture of my test results. I got them not long ago. Thanks for you help and comments. I really do appreciate it. I've found it very difficult to find a good system for iron and manganese. Thank you.

 

[ditttohead]

Just my opinion, a chlorine injection system and a baffled contact tank with an automated blowdown to start the process. Followed by a katalox light tank and a softener. If the budget allows, a simple backwashing carbon tank between the katalox light and the softener would be desirable. Finish this off with a UV light and you are good to go. This may seem like overkill but it is the correct way.

 

[Reach4]

Finish this off with a UV light and you are good to go. This may seem like overkill but it is the correct way.

Seems like overkill to me. Chlorine injection and UV on a deep well with no indication of pathogens or even coliform?

 

[ditttohead]

Coliform was positive. Unless I read it wrong, sorry, been travelling for a while so my skills may be a it off today.

 

[Bannerman]

Yes, Coliform Positive.

 

[Reach4]

Good chance the sample was not taken right, or the well had not been sanitized in years.

But even if not, you inject chlorine. That would kill, right?

Does the KL remove residual chlorine?
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my sanitizing writeup.

 

[ditttohead]

As to KL removing residual chlorine, it is not specifically designed to do that. When designing a system we usually assume it does not for a few different reasons. It does not get rid of some of the byproducts of chlorine so the carbon becomes an important item when chlorine is used.

 

[Reach4]

So we might be looking at

1. pressure tank (already there)
2. chlorine injection system with proportional peristaltic pump
3. baffled contact tank with an automated blowdown
   
4. KL tank
5. GAC tank
6. softener (controls peristaltic pump too)
7. 5 micron cartridge filter
8. UV

Pretty big BOM. Maybe just leave space for #3 and #8 in case they are needed?

Maybe manual blowdown -- how often would that be needed?

 

[ditttohead]

You could likely forgo the KL system and go with a manual blowdown, but the manual blowdowns tend to get neglected.

Bacteria kill requires contact time and a redundancy is very important.

 

[Jrland]

Hi All,

I really appreciate the exchange of information here. There is certainly a lot to be learned from conversation like that. I need to ask what a baffled contact tank with automated or manual blow down is? I tried to google it and I find nothing. I plan on testing my water pump this weekend to find out my GPM. I think I have something wrong with my pressure tank though. Several years ago I drained the tank for winter and when I put it back in use it only seems to hold a couple of gallons before the pump kicks on. I can move it by hand now and that wasn't the case before, so I had to do something wrong. A friend suggested draining the tank again and refill it. Any suggestions?
I've had the house for 7 years working on it. Had the pressure tank installed when i first took possession and the installer chlorinate the well. After reading how to chlorinate a well, I realize he didn't do it the same way. I will chlorinate the well and retest for sure. Any water has been used by a hose bib for construction use over these last 7 years. A hose bib is the only source and the system isn't hooked up to the house yet. I'll include a photo.
Thanks so much for all of your help on this. I really do appreciate it.

 

[Reach4]

I plan on testing my water pump this weekend to find out my GPM. I think I have something wrong with my pressure tank though. Several years ago I drained the tank for winter and when I put it back in use it only seems to hold a couple of gallons before the pump kicks on. I can move it by hand now and that wasn't the case before, so I had to do something wrong. A friend suggested draining the tank again and refill it. Any suggestions?

That is news to be hopeful of. A failed tank is usually heavy. I suspect your precharge is high, but I don't know how that would have happened.

A precharged pressure tank connected to a submersible pump should usually have the air precharge set to 2 psi below the cut-on pressure for the pump. Precharge is always set with the water [pressure near zero.

I've had the house for 7 years working on it. Had the pressure tank installed when i first took possession and the installer chlorinate the well. After reading how to chlorinate a well, I realize he didn't do it the same way. I will chlorinate the well and retest for sure. Any water has been used by a hose bib for construction use over these last 7 years. A hose bib is the only source and the system isn't hooked up to the house yet. I'll include a photo.

My sanitizing writeup https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is more involved than most practices. It is aimed at the user who can take a lot of time to get a better result.

 

[Bannerman]

If you can turn the pressure tank so the air valve (looks like the fitting to check air pressure in tires) is pointed downwards, no water should exit the valve when the air valve is opened. If any water exits, then the bladder/diaphragm is damaged so the tank will likely need to be replaced.

Assuming the tank is good and no water exits, with the well pump turned off and a faucet opened until water stops flowing, check the pre-charge pressure in the pressure tank by using a tire pressure gauge. As mentioned, the pressure should normally be 2 psi lower than the cut-in pressure set on the pump pressure switch (usually either 20 or 30 psi). If the pressure is too high, open the pressure fitting to allow some air to escape. If pressure is too low, use a tire pump or air compressor to raise the tank's pre-charge pressure.

The contact tank is intended to allow an oxidant such as chlorine or hydrogen peroxide to oxidize ferrous iron, converting it to ferric iron which will precipitate as a solid (rust). Precipitated solids will settle on the tank bottom and will need to be flushed out using a valve connected to the tank bottom (blow down). Each blow-down to drain may be performed manually, or may be automated on a schedule by using an electrically operated valve connected to a controller.

A baffled contact tank incorporates a means to ensure the oxidant will thoroughly mix with with the water entering the tank, and will also reduce the likelihood that sediment will be mixed with the cleaner water to exit the tank.

 

[LLigetfa]

The contact tank is intended to allow an oxidant such as chlorine or hydrogen peroxide to oxidize ferrous iron, converting it to ferric iron which will precipitate as a solid (rust). Precipitated solids will settle on the tank bottom and will need to be flushed out using a valve connected to the tank bottom (blow down). Each blow-down to drain may be performed manually, or may be automated on a schedule by using an electrically operated valve connected to a controller...

In theory perhaps but I wish that worked in practice. I have two hydro-pneumatic tanks with curved bottoms and blowdown ports and neither of them have precipitated iron settle on the tank bottoms. The iron prefers to stick to all the surfaces both in the tanks and all the pipes between the micronizer and the iron filter. The only way I can get the iron motivated is through mechanical agitation. I have double union ball valves in various places inline so I can break them apart to pressure wash them.

 

[Reach4]

"Contact tank" AKA "retention tank". "Baffle factor" AKA "baffling factor"

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/152

 

[Jrland]

If you can turn the pressure tank so the air valve (looks like the fitting to check air pressure in tires) is pointed downwards, no water should exit the valve when the air valve is opened. If any water exits, then the bladder/diaphragm is damaged so the tank will likely need to be replaced.

Assuming the tank is good and no water exits, with the well pump turned off and a faucet opened until water stops flowing, check the pre-charge pressure in the pressure tank by using a tire pressure gauge. As mentioned, the pressure should normally be 2 psi lower than the cut-in pressure set on the pump pressure switch (usually either 20 or 30 psi). If the pressure is too high, open the pressure fitting to allow some air to escape. If pressure is too low, use a tire pump or air compressor to raise the tank's pre-charge pressure.

The contact tank is intended to allow an oxidant such as chlorine or hydrogen peroxide to oxidize ferrous iron, converting it to ferric iron which will precipitate as a solid (rust). Precipitated solids will settle on the tank bottom and will need to be flushed out using a valve connected to the tank bottom (blow down). Each blow-down to drain may be performed manually, or may be automated on a schedule by using an electrically operated valve connected to a controller.

A baffled contact tank incorporates a means to ensure the oxidant will thoroughly mix with with the water entering the tank, and will also reduce the likelihood that sediment will be mixed with the cleaner water to exit the tank.

Hello, I'm back again to figure out this water treatment system. I figured out my tank is pumping 9GPM. I went through the procedure that Bannerman mentioned above to figure out my tank pressure. I killed power to the pump. Drained the water checked my pressure and it was around 24 (could be a couple pounds more but all hell broke loose after that) I knew my pressure gauge on the pump always read about 45. I plugged in the pump and it filled and the pressure on the pump gauge went to 55. I let some of the air out of the pressure tank but realized that the gauge on the pump was going over 60 psi so I drained it again, checked the tank, it was at 16. I pumped it to 24lb and when I plugged the well pump back in it pumped water to 55 on the gauge before it kicks off. It kicks on a lot faster now. I don't know how to change the pressure in which the pump kicks on.

 

[Bannerman]

I don't know how to change the pressure in which the pump kicks on.

The pressure is adjusted using the pressure switch which is the grey box shown behind the pressure gauge. The pressure switch cover will need to be removed to access the adjustment screw, The kick-in and shut-off pressure differential is usually 20 psi.

 

[Jrland]

The pressure is adjusted using the pressure switch which is the grey box shown behind the pressure gauge. The pressure switch cover will need to be removed to access the adjustment screw, The kick-in and shut-off pressure differential is usually 20 psi.

I swear you can learn anything on you tube! Thanks for the link. From what is said there it seems the pump is operating normally, (a little off) now at 40 and stops pumping at 55. It did change to those numbers after I emptied the tank. I guess what I don't get is why my pump kicks on after only about 3 gallons of water is discharged from the tank? I just seems with that, to place demand on the system, the pump would be running all of the time. 3 gallons doesn't seem like much and that is what has left me wondering if something is wrong. When I looked up my well tank, the info said it was a 32 gallon but when I drained it there was only about 13 gallons. Just seems weird. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

 

[Bannerman]

You may want to first verify the accuracy of your pressure gauge.

Now that there is water within the pressure tank, the air pressure in the pressure tank should read the same as the system pressure gauge. Assuming the tire pressure gauge you are using to check the tank's air pressure is fairly accurate, any discrepancy between the two gauges will indicate the amount of inaccuracy of the system pressure gauge.

13 gallons draw down from a 32 gallon tank is about right. Here is a chart which indicates the usable volume for various capacity tanks using 3 pressure setting ranges. https://images.app.goo.gl/HFB1RV7o4JrkzF588

The drawdown capacity is typically based on a 20 psi differential so you may need to perform an adjustment to increase the current 15 psi differential. The current low differential will explain lower drawdown capacity, but 3 gallons seems too low.

If you wish to change the system pressure, ensure the pre-charge pressure is adjusted appropriately otherwise, the tank bladder maybe stretched excessively and will be prone to failure. The pre-charge pressure should be 2 psi lower than the pressure switch shut-off kick-in setting.