Installing a utility sink pump?

[SD-777]

I'm trying to install a utility sink pump and had a few questions. The current setup is a ventless pump which was installed when I purchased the house, that failed and I replaced it with a similar pump from Home Depot which also failed at about a year. I suspect washing my hands full of dirt may have caused the pumps to fail, but not sure. Enclosed picture of my current setup, the 2nd floor was added onto the house about 40 years ago so it looks like they tied in to the original cast iron sewer line.

Anyway I was looking for a more robust solution and considering the Liberty 404/405.

1) Will either of those units be less susceptible to failure due to dirt/silt? I see the 404 is rated for 3/8" size particles, but so was my previous pump which failed. The 405 is rated for "solids," but I can't find any more specifics than that.

2) Can I use my previous installation? The issue is the 404/405 have 1 1/2" outlets, but my current setup looks like maybe 1" or 3/4" outlets, could I just tie into that or do I have to do all new lines at 1 1/4" ?

3) I'm not sure how to tie into the sewer. The current tie in seems pretty mickey moused, they just tied it into the sewer clean out. Is this ok? If so where would I get such an adapter, the sewer pipe seems like it's 5" which doesn't seem like a typical size.

3a) A second option would be to tie into the drain pipe from the upstairs kitchen and basement washing machine, could I just tie in here with a wye? (enclosed picture)

4) For the 404/405 I need venting but don't have any vents to tie into. I know I can't use an AAV, but I had read somewhere about drilling 3x 1/8" holes into the AAV's threads to allow air flow, is this legit? 2nd choice would be to run a vent up to the ceiling, then horizontal about 10 feet to clear a home addition, then out through the rim joist, I'd really rather avoid that as it involves going through joists. 3rd choice, this will only be used as an occasional utility sink pump so do I need to worry about sewer gas with such a setup? Could I just vent a few feet inside of the sink, or will the standing water in the pump eventually smell?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Breplum]

Those Liberty 404's are great. But, NO you cannot do what you say about drilling holes in the vent for an AAV because it can stink and is not at all sanitary or safe.
You can stub out a new vent to the outside above snow line (and maybe not run up through the roof, though not to code, will work)
The proper way to tie in to an existing horizontal drain line is not as you picture but from above via a wye fitting.
The current tap into a clean-out is stupid/bad and should be abandoned. A standard plug will work fine there.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[SD-777]

Those Liberty 404's are great. But, NO you cannot do what you say about drilling holes in the vent for an AAV because it can stink and is not at all sanitary or safe.
You can stub out a new vent to the outside above snow line (and maybe not run up through the roof, though not to code, will work)
The proper way to tie in to an existing horizontal drain line is not as you picture but from above via a wye fitting.
The current tap into a clean-out is stupid/bad and should be abandoned. A standard plug will work fine there.

Thank you so much for the reply. So pipe the pump's output line to above the horizontal drain, then 90 degree and tie it into the drain with a wye? Does it have to be any particular height above the horizontal drain, or just enough to get it into the wye? Should I consider another backflow valve before the new wye?

Yeah the current tap is very odd, it steps down twice and has multiple backflow valves, makes me wonder if I ruined the old pumps with dirt or if maybe there was an issue with backpressure.

For the vent I guess the only choice is the rim joist and then run it up over the snow line.

 

[Breplum]

Just high enough to get into the wye. Long sweep 90's (or 45s welcome) don't hurt but not necessary as the pump can handle it pretty well.
Yes, a check valve is always the way to go to prevent sewage back down into the line.

 

[John Gayewski]

The 405's I've installed are 2". Whomever installed your setup messed it up. You need one check valve near the pump on the outlet and one vent to atmosphere.

If you don't have a 2" pipe to pump into you should not install a 405 or 404 unless there is a 1.5" version.

 

[SD-777]

The 405's I've installed are 2". Whomever installed your setup messed it up. You need one check valve near the pump on the outlet and one vent to atmosphere.

If you don't have a 2" pipe to pump into you should not install a 405 or 404 unless there is a 1.5" version.

The 404 is a 1.5" outlet, I double checked with Liberty. My current setup does not need a vent and has a check valve on the outlet side that I did not picture, but besides that yeah it's pretty fubared as they step it down in size twice, I'm just going to totally eliminate that as Breplum suggested and outlet into the existing drain and vent through the rim joist.

My only remaining question for everyone is if I would be ok with the 404 if I'm washing my hands full of dirt frequently, or if I should step up to the 405?

 

[Reach4]

The 404 is plenty, and in fact the 406 would be plenty too.

Drain Pumps

Liberty Pumps drain pumps: Efficient wastewater removal for homes & businesses. Laundry tray, greywater, & sink pumps.

www.libertypumps.com

The 404L has 2 inch connections, but I am confident that 1.5 is more than big enough. It's not like you are handling a toilet.

 

[SD-777]

The 404 is plenty, and in fact the 406 would be plenty too.

Drain Pumps

Liberty Pumps drain pumps: Efficient wastewater removal for homes & businesses. Laundry tray, greywater, & sink pumps.

www.libertypumps.com

The 404L has 2 inch connections, but I am confident that 1.5 is more than big enough. It's not like you are handling a toilet.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the 404L but I see it on the spec sheet which shows the 404 as 1.5" https://www.libertypumps.com/Portals/0/Files/Sales Literature/Model_404.pdf

My concern isn't how much water it's moving, but rather to tolerate some solids getting in there. I suspect my prior pumps failed because of dirt/sand and they were rated similar to the 404 at 3/8" solids where the 405 is just rated as "solids." (Edit: never mind, on the spec sheet it also shows the 405 as 3/8" solids)

Also is stepping the 405 down from 2" to 1.5" catastrophic? I understand it's not the right way, but will it cause the pump to fail a lot sooner, or just put a little more stress on it. The outlet would go up about 5 feet, reduce to 1 1/2 then tie into the 1 1/2 drain via a wye.

 

[Reach4]

I would not go to the 404L.

What was the mode of failure for the old pump? I tried to find that on the HD site, but did not. I suspect it died for some non-particle size reason, but I don't know.

To me, if you ran the vent line to an open pipe that is as high as the top of the sink, it would alert you to pump failure because the sink would not drain.

 

[SD-777]

I would not go to the 404L.

What was the mode of failure for the old pump? I tried to find that on the HD site, but did not. I suspect it died for some non-particle size reason, but I don't know.

To me, if you ran the vent line to an open pipe that is as high as the top of the sink, it would alert you to pump failure because the sink would not drain.

No, wasn't considering the 404L, I was considering the 404 vs the 405 but looking at the specs they both handle 3/8" solids. My application would be frequent washing of my hands after working outside, so dirt, sand, silt etc. 3/8" seems rather large, like the size of a small pebble which I would definitely not be letting go down. I do have a strainer/filter on the sink itself.

The failure of the old pumps (went through 2 of them) was they would just stop spinning and would just hum like something was stuck in there. If I took the pump off and used it on a bench and started the impeller by hand then it would spin, but would get stuck again after re installation. I cleaned the impeller and pump as best I could. I'm not sure if I messed it up by letting dirt/silt get in there, or if maybe there was too much backpressure caused by the multiple step downs in outlet pipe size.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by running the vent line to an open pipe.

 

[Reach4]

The

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by running the vent line to an open pipe.

The pump sump has a vent connection. You are running this as a non-vented system system without an outdoor vent, because it is just for hand washing...

If you just leave the connection at the tank open, if the pump failed, or the power failed, you might use the sink until you noticed water coming out of the vent port. If you connect a pipe, then the sink would start filling up if the pump failed. You would stop using the sink sooner.

You could run the vent line higher, and outside, but I am thinking that would not be necessary, unless you picture putting stuff that would cause a smell into the sink.

 

[SD-777]

The

The pump sump has a vent connection. You are running this as a non-vented system, because it is just for hand washing...

If you just leave the connection at the tank open, if the pump failed, or the power failed, you might use the sink until you noticed water coming out of the vent port. If you connect a pipe, then the sink would start filling up if the pump failed. You would stop using the sink sooner.

You mean my existing system? It's ventless by design, the pump does not need a vent or even have any capacity to add a vent anywhere. Since there is no reservoir/container I can see the sink start to fill up right away.

For the proposed new system using the 404 I wouldn't leave the vent open at the tank or at the pipe because, as others have pointed out, it would smell. Although you bring up a good point about the pump failing, might have to consider the alarm version of the 404 in that case.

 

[Reach4]

For the proposed new system using the 404 I wouldn't leave the vent open at the tank or at the pipe because, as others have pointed out, it would smell. Although you bring up a good point about the pump failing, might have to consider the alarm version of the 404 in that case.

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/liberty-404-basin-pump-to-vent-or-not-to-vent.61115/

 

[SD-777]

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/liberty-404-basin-pump-to-vent-or-not-to-vent.61115/

Thanks, I guess, the vent issue was resolved in the second post if you scroll up.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks, I guess, the vent issue was resolved in the second post if you scroll up.

I was fully aware of #2. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ump-to-vent-or-not-to-vent.61115/#post-453126 offered an easier alternative.

I think I was mis-using "non-vented" in #11. Clearly there is a path to inside or outside air so as to not allow a vacuum or pressure in the tank. So you need a connection to the atmosphere. Does that connection need to be to the outside, or is an inside opening sufficient?

Do you intend to have a p-trap for the sink?

 

[SD-777]

I was fully aware of #2. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ump-to-vent-or-not-to-vent.61115/#post-453126 offered an easier alternative.

I think I was mis-using "non-vented" in #11. Clearly there is a path to inside or outside air so as to not allow a vacuum or pressure in the tank. So you need a connection to the atmosphere. Does that connection need to be to the outside, or is an inside opening sufficient?

Do you intend to have a p-trap for the sink?

I'm not seeing anything differently in #2 of that post or maybe not understanding, is it the part "Provision is made for a vent stack to allow extra volume for high suds conditions, and to ensure proper drainage of the fixture. HAND-TIGHTEN ONLY. DO NOT CAP-OFF VENT." Does that mean I can have an open vent if I stack it higher?

Yes I plan on a p-trap for the sink. I would much prefer an indoor vent solution but have no access to any vent lines as this is in the basement. To do a non-code vent to the outside I'm going to have to run a line up 8 feet and horizontal about 10 feet to clear a home addition, then through the rim joist to the outside. I could also vent through the cinder block to the crawlspace underneath a 3 season room, but not sure if the smell is enough to create an issue there.

 

[Bannerman]

I suspect a significant reason for the rapid fail rate for the pumps utilized so far, is not due to debris from simple hand-washing, but instead caused by the frequency of the pump's On/Off cycles, especially while there is only modest flow directly from the sink being drained.

Those inline drain pumps are typically controlled by a diaphragm pressure switch located on the pump's inlet connection, as can be seen in your photo. Because the diaphragm is large, and located so close to the pump, only a small amount of water sitting in the pump inlet will cause the switch to become activated, The amount of water sitting in the short section of pipe above the switch, will be rapidly eliminated, thereby resulting in the pump running for only a brief period (likely only a few seconds) each time.

During each start-up, an electric motor will consume significantly greater current until running at full rotational speed. Although brief, the higher amount of startup current is converted to heat, so multiple rapid start cycles without sufficient run time to cause airflow through the motor to provide cooling, will usually cause excessive heat buildup in the motor. The excess heat will typically result in the motor's lifespan to be significantly reduced, and the heat will be transferred to the plastic pump attached directly above.

Drain pump kits such as the 404 and similar laundry drain kits that utilize a small tank, allow a larger volume of water to enter before the float switch raises to activate the pump. Not only does the tank reduce the frequency of pump cycling, the pump will also run for a longer time period to remove the larger water volume, and the incorporated submersible pump will be cooled by the water flowing through it.

The tank requires open venting since the water that enters while the pump is OFF, will displace air within the tank, pushing the air out. While the pump is operating and the fluid level is being reduced, air will then need to renter the tank, otherwise a vacuum condition will be created.

Because the tank will require an external open air vent, a properly configured 'P'-trap will be required between the sink drain (and laundry equipment drain standpipe?), and the tank inlet connection. The 'P'-trap should be routed to the branch (side) connection of a drain 'T', before the tank's inlet connection, to permit the T's top connection to be also externally vented. The drain water entering the side connection, will exit through the bottom connection to the tank.

Incorporating a vented T, will allow the sink (and laundry equipment) trap(s) to remain in a 'P' configuration, as opposed to an 'S' trap configuration as would occur if no vented 'T' connection was utilized. 'S' traps typically no longer are code compliant as the downward flow with no venting, can cause the water within the trap to be syphoned out, which may result in sewer (methane) gas entering the living space through the fixture's open (no longer protected) drain connection.

 

[Reach4]

I'm not seeing anything differently in #2 of that post or maybe not understanding, is it the part "Provision is made for a vent stack to allow extra volume for high suds conditions, and to ensure proper drainage of the fixture. HAND-TIGHTEN ONLY. DO NOT CAP-OFF VENT." Does that mean I can have an open vent if I stack it higher?

As I read it, the first sentence of what you quoted seems to say that a vent connection is optional. Second sentence seems to say that you can connect a vent of some sort to deal to deal with suds or other reason.

"HAND-TIGHTEN ONLY. DO NOT CAP-OFF VENT. DO NOT use ONE-WAY QUICK-VENTS or AIR ADMITTENCE VALVES as they will not guarantee proper fixture performance." is logical and says what not to do.

"The vent pipe should have a union to facilitate removal if required and shall be connected directly to a building or house vent." is a little confusing. Does it say that you should always have a vent connection to a building or house vent? If it said that, it would seem to be contrary to the "Provision is made for a vent stack" statement, because I think that implies optional.

What I mainly point to is "When you are using a gray water basin with pump it's a little different than for a sewage pump.
Most of the time I see washer pumps installed without connecting a vent to the house system."

It seems to me that if you don't connect to a proper outside vent, a p-trap would not be needed. But if you put in a p-trap, that might call for you to vent that trap arm-- dunno.

I am not a pro. Feel free to interpret things differently.

 

[SD-777]

As I read it, the first sentence of what you quoted seems to say that a vent connection is optional. Second sentence seems to say that you can connect a vent of some sort to deal to deal with suds or other reason.

"HAND-TIGHTEN ONLY. DO NOT CAP-OFF VENT. DO NOT use ONE-WAY QUICK-VENTS or AIR ADMITTENCE VALVES as they will not guarantee proper fixture performance." is logical and says what not to do.

"The vent pipe should have a union to facilitate removal if required and shall be connected directly to a building or house vent." is a little confusing. Does it say that you should always have a vent connection to a building or house vent? If it said that, it would seem to be contrary to the "Provision is made for a vent stack" statement, because I think that implies optional.

What I mainly point to is "When you are using a gray water basin with pump it's a little different than for a sewage pump.
Most of the time I see washer pumps installed without connecting a vent to the house system."

It seems to me that if you don't connect to a proper outside vent, a p-trap would not be needed. But if you put in a p-trap, that might call for you to vent that trap arm-- dunno.

I am not a pro. Feel free to interpret things differently.

Edited: I was looking at the wrong type of P trap. Yeah I'm not sure either way, will probably just do a P trap into the side inlet instead of a S trap into the top inlet.

 

[SD-777]

I suspect a significant reason for the rapid fail rate for the pumps utilized so far, is not due to debris from simple hand-washing, but instead caused by the frequency of the pump's On/Off cycles, especially while there is only modest flow directly from the sink being drained.

Those inline drain pumps are typically controlled by a diaphragm pressure switch located on the pump's inlet connection, as can be seen in your photo. Because the diaphragm is large, and located so close to the pump, only a small amount of water sitting in the pump inlet will cause the switch to become activated, The amount of water sitting in the short section of pipe above the switch, will be rapidly eliminated, thereby resulting in the pump running for only a brief period (likely only a few seconds) each time.

During each start-up, an electric motor will consume significantly greater current until running at full rotational speed. Although brief, the higher amount of startup current is converted to heat, so multiple rapid start cycles without sufficient run time to cause airflow through the motor to provide cooling, will usually cause excessive heat buildup in the motor. The excess heat will typically result in the motor's lifespan to be significantly reduced, and the heat will be transferred to the plastic pump attached directly above.

Drain pump kits such as the 404 and similar laundry drain kits that utilize a small tank, allow a larger volume of water to enter before the float switch raises to activate the pump. Not only does the tank reduce the frequency of pump cycling, the pump will also run for a longer time period to remove the larger water volume, and the incorporated submersible pump will be cooled by the water flowing through it.

The tank requires open venting since the water that enters while the pump is OFF, will displace air within the tank, pushing the air out. While the pump is operating and the fluid level is being reduced, air will then need to renter the tank, otherwise a vacuum condition will be created.

Because the tank will require an external open air vent, a properly configured 'P'-trap will be required between the sink drain (and laundry equipment drain standpipe?), and the tank inlet connection. The 'P'-trap should be routed to the branch (side) connection of a drain 'T', before the tank's inlet connection, to permit the T's top connection to be also externally vented. The drain water entering the side connection, will exit through the bottom connection to the tank.

Incorporating a vented T, will allow the sink (and laundry equipment) trap(s) to remain in a 'P' configuration, as opposed to an 'S' trap configuration as would occur if no vented 'T' connection was utilized. 'S' traps typically no longer are code compliant as the downward flow with no venting, can cause the water within the trap to be syphoned out, which may result in sewer (methane) gas entering the living space through the fixture's open (no longer protected) drain connection.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense, from what I understand those ventless pumps are very prone to failure.

I'm not sure how I would setup a P trap as the instructions show a S trap. Would a P trap allow air to get in? Would I just setup a P trap with the inlet of the 404 and cap off the vent side?

Edit: Never mind I was looking at a different P trap setup. So instead of doing a S-trap going into the top inlet of the 404 vertically, I should do a P-trap going horizontally into the side inlet of the 404?