Installer cut off SER ground wire

[CubGirl]

Hi everybody...

I replaced two 2-2-2-4 SER with 2/0-2/0-2/0-4 & 1/0-1/0-1/0-4 to get 125A in each unit for a two-family. The upstairs SER was de-rated for attic heat & length. I have a 2 gang Siemens WP2211RJ gang meter and a 200A panel (P4040B1200CU) back fed with a 125A breaker and a 125A lug panel (P2020L1125CU).

I paid an installer to do this work. He cut the #4 ground off both SER's at the meter end, over my objections, saying they were redundant. He connected the SER neutrals to the grounded neutral from the POCO. The units were energized & everything appears OK. But I'm worried about those cut grounds.

The units are empty and I don't want to get tenants in them until I determine if this setup is safe. In the last two days, I've read a lot about earth ground, equipment ground, bonding, etc.

At first, I thought the following after reading the NEC and looking at the (1st picture) of EGC bonded to neutral:

250.130 Equipment Ground connections at service equipment shall be made as indicated in 250.130(A) or (B).
(A) For Grounded Systems. The connection shall be made by bonding the equipment grounding conductor (i.e., the unsheathed SER ground cable) to the grounded service conductor (i.e., the grounded neutral from utility company) and the grounding electrode conductor (i.e., the earth ground).

since my gang meter is grounded to earth, the EQPT GND on the SER needed to be connected to the grounded service neutral conductor and the bond between the neutral & ground should be removed at each panel.

if the gang meter were not grounded, then the EQPT GND on the SER still should have been attached to earth ground but the bond between the neutral & ground at each panel would remain intact and each individual panel should be connected to an earth ground.

BUT THEN, I saw the 2nd picture on Mike Holt's site of neutral to case connection and read the following:

"At service equipment, the service neutral conductor provides the effective ground-fault current path to the power supply [250.24(C)]; therefore, an equipment grounding conductor isn't required to be installed within PVC conduit containing service entrance conductors [250.142(A)(1) and 352.60 Ex 2]."

So, if the gang meter is service equipment and the installer connected the SER neutral to the grounded neutral from the POCO, is what he did OK?? It looks exactly like the 2nd picture. (My understanding is the service equipment comes bonded from the manufacturer.)

Can somebody shed some light on this for me please? I need to either move on or get this fixed ASAP.

thank you
cubgirl

 

[Stuff]

You need to track down a local electrical inspector. Call your city/borough building/inspection office. If they don't do it themselves ask for a recommendation.

You have main service disconnects at your meters. From there to your panels the cables are considered feeders and need to include separate neutral and ground (grounded and grounding conductors).


Also -

1. The PVC reference and 2nd picture are for when it is a meter without disconnect. The service disconnect is in the box on the right and everything to the left is considered service conductors.
2. SER cable should have both the neutral and ground connected to the ground bar connections in your meter/main. That is why there are 5 connections available. Then like you thought, the bonding screw is removed in the two panels.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[hj]

How are you getting the meters set without clearance, and an inspection, from the building department?

 

[CubGirl]

yes i've already taken steps to have this fixed... i've been advised the #4 ground that was cut in the SER can be spliced but i question that. isn't a better fix buying a sheathed #4 and running it separately to the meter main?

 

[CubGirl]

so i'm going to get this fixed ASAP... i've been advised to get a splice box to splice the #4 GND on the SER but that solution bothers me a bit. there is no GND left at the meter end. we could splice it in the middle of the SER (at least the 35' 2/0; the 1/0 would be more difficult as most of it is in conduit) but i'd rather have a non-spliced ground wire.

is a better solution just buying a sheathed #4 and running it separately in parallel to the SER?

here is the schematic of the meter main.

my plan is to run #4 to the N2/EQPT GND bus/bar (which is already bonded by the manufacturer, is that right??) and the other end will to the ground bar at the panel.

at each siemens panel (schematics attached), i'm going to ensure the neutral and ground bus/bars are NOT bonded together. they're not bonded at the factory, right? so unless a jumper is installed, i can assume they are not bonded.

taking these steps will fix everything, is that correct? is there anything else i need to know or do??

thanks for your help. i appreciate it very much.
cub

 

[Stuff]

Running a separate wire would most likely be a violation of the "same raceway" rules as well as needing protection. Proper splicing should suffice. I don't get what you mean by splicing in the middle.

If you have problems with this basic wiring what else is wrong? Even if not required in your area you should get another set of eyes to review everything.

 

[CubGirl]

first, i'm trying to verify what needs to be done.

what i mean is there's no room to splice the #4 at meter end.

these SER's are on the load side -- i thought raceways rules were for supply side but maybe not?

 

[Stuff]

Asking the Internet and learning may help but someone with experience on site looking at the problem is infinitely more valuable. How many people text descriptions of their teeth to their dentist so that they don't have to go in for a real checkup? So then they only go in if told what they are describing is something bad?

Anyway, a competent electrician should be able to fix this fairly quickly. One option would be to add a gutter below or next to your meter/main.

There are raceway rules for both sides. The current NEC is around 900 pages so figuring out what rules apply can be difficult. That is after determining which NEC and any local amendments.

 

[CubGirl]

i hired licensed electrical company to do this job in April. they did no load calculations; they derated no wires (he acted like he didn't even know what it was). i asked the electrician for 125A in each unit, minimum. what i got was 2-2-2-4 feeders that carry 90A, and even while they were installing, they assured me the feeders had 125A ampacity. then they put in 100A tenant breakers & 100A mains in the subpanels. they must've thought i was a total fool.

i fired them and bought new feeders and new subpanels to fix their crummy work. i had to have a minimum of a 125A panel w/ 60A double pole for tankless water heater in one of the units (the smallest one). i did my own load calcs and 125A was the MINIMUM required in each unit to support the load.

i got a friend to help me fix because i knew i could not handle the 1/0 and 2/0 SER's. unfortunately, he cut the EGC's. now i'm fixing his mistake. however, his error is more acceptable because, while it's wrong, it was at least an honest mistake.

after i realized the electrician screwed me, i called the AHJ but here, in my neck of the woods, the AHJ is a joke. i went to them about the load calcs, the non-de-rated cable and the fact i got two 100A panels when i was told i'd get two 125A. the AHJ doesn't really check their work, but goes by what the contractor signs off on what he SAYS he did. the AHJ guy said he can't force contractors to do load calcs or to install derated cables... he said the contractors would call the mayor who would then call his boss & his job would be in jeopardy. that's when i realized the AHJ & contractors are in bed together and neither one give a rat's a$$ about the end customers. it's a giant good ole boy system here.

so i'm on my own...

if anyone wants to impart electrical knowledge to help i'd appreciate that. if not that's OK too; i'm figuring it out on my own.

P.S. the City adopted 2002 code, as written. when i talked to the AHJ guy, he bragged they were going to adopt the 2014 code. i laughed out loud & asked him Why?? they were not enforcing the 2002 code so what difference would that possible make...

it's incredible.

 

[Stuff]

OK. So you found some incompetent idiots and Boss Hogg from the Dukes of Hazzard is running the show. It is a little late but you need to keep on looking as you shouldn't be on your own. Maybe contact someone from an adjacent city.

 

[DonL]

Was the ground wire cut, Or the correct wire was never installed ?

Sounds a bit fishy to me.

 

[Mitchel Killinger]

This thread has been WAY overcomplicated.

YOU ALWAYS CUT THE GROUND OFF SER TO METER AND MAIN!!

Why? Because no one makes SER without a ground and because you don't need the ground wire in SER inside meter socket or main, only for Sub-Panels. The #6 AWG (bare or green) from ground rod is what goes to main panel.

Standard 100-amp Overhead or Underground Service away from driveway in Wisconsin (NEC 2012):

1) Tri-Plex in PVC (overhead) or USE (underground) to Meter Base/Socket

2) exposed 2,2,2,4 SER (with ground wire CUT OFF and taped at each end) from Meter to 100-amp Main Breaker Panel inside basement. #6 Green AWG stripped at panel clamp ran outside to ground rod.

SER (un-altered) to sub-panels only, usually in apartment complexes.

 

[Stuff]

Mitchel Killinger - Thanks for your comments but I think that you mis-read the post. This is about feeds to sub-panels so SER is appropriate (as you stated in your last line). OP has a dual meter-main that has a disconnect (breaker) for each feeder.