Fleck 5810 upflow injector with elevated brine tank.

[BDrivenByDemons]

Hi. I recently inherited a 5810SXT setup configured for upflow. It has the blue dot piston and per the Pentair service manual, for a 12x52" tank w/ 2 cuft resin, a 3.5 DLFC, a .5 BLFC, and a white #1 injector. People here seem to recommend a violet #00 injector to slow down the brine during the upflow BD cycle. The Pentair chart calls for red #0. I also have an elevated brine tank - resin/valve in the basement with brine in the garage. Would I be better off going with a brown #000 since the brine has help from gravity? Slower is better anyway for upflow is my thinking but IDK what else that will effect. I'll be shooting for 8-10 LB/FT when it's all said and done. I notice comments saying downflow is simpler and upflow isn't really a benefit but I'm not buying a new piston to convert. I'd like to tweak the setup I have to it's finest if possible. Thanks for any help.

***RESULTS***

Brine draw with violet injector @ level tank was .199GPM - 25:11 for 5 gallons. Elevated tank stepped it up to .21GPM - 23:46 for 5 gallons. Total flow at drain was .48GPM in both instances. Negligible difference IMO. I was as precise as I could be. Measured exactly 5 gal to draw both times and used a stopwatch. I have a cycle stop valve set to 40-60. My drawdown should have ran the pump 3 or 4 times during that for a good 50PSI average. Falls almost spot on the Pentair chart - as it should.

 

[Reach4]

If BF=10, I would usually predict it would take about 34 minutes to draw the brine with a #00 Injector - Violet injector. So BD would be set to between 119 minutes and 136. That would be 7.5 lb/cuft brining. I have 0.17 gpm brine draw with the #00. Do you have a number for the #000?


Elevated... not sure how much that would affect things. Is the tank on the floor above, or 4 ft above the floor the tank is on?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

If BF=10, I would usually predict it would take about 34 minutes to draw the brine with a #00 Injector - Violet injector. So BD would be set to between 119 minutes and 136. That would be 7.5 lb/cuft brining. I have 0.17 gpm brine draw with the #00. Do you have a number for the #000?


Elevated... not sure how much that would affect things. Is the tank on the floor above, or 4 ft above the floor the tank is on?

BF is currently 12 for about 9lb/ft3. The #000 says .1gpm. #0 is about .25.

The tank is a full floor up. 9' basement. It's real nice not carrying those 50lb bags downstairs.

 

[Reach4]

Looking at page 29 of the service manual, I can agree on 0.1 gpm.

I am wondering if this would be comparable to adding about 5 psi along the graph. Not sure I feel comfortable with that.

9 lb per cuft is higher than usual, with 8 being pretty common. But running the numbers, I get
69.3 minutes of draw with the #000 and 40.8 minutes of draw with the #00
Similarly, with your current #1, I would calculate 19.8 minutes to draw the brine. So time the actual draw, and that will tell you how your setup varies from the calculated. Watching that brine level fall is going to be long and boring. And knowing when the air check valve closes is going to be difficult to note accurately. Do what you can.


Then for BD time, multiply by about 3.5 to 4 time the actual brine time draw.

So what you can do is to put in your new injector. Time the draw from when BD starts to when the brine has been sucked down, and then use that time, rather than the estimated time, to multiply by 3.5 to 4 to get BD.

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

Looking at page 29 of the service manual, I can agree on 0.1 gpm.

I am wondering if this would be comparable to adding about 5 psi along the graph. Not sure I feel comfortable with that.

9 lb per cuft is higher than usual, with 8 being pretty common. But running the numbers, I get
69.3 minutes of draw with the #000 and 40.8 minutes of draw with the #00
Similarly, with your current #1, I would calculate 19.8 minutes to draw the brine. So time the actual draw, and that will tell you how your setup varies from the calculated. Watching that brine level fall is going to be long and boring. And knowing when the air check valve closes is going to be difficult to note accurately. Do what you can.


Then for BD time, multiply by about 3.5 to 4 time the actual brine time draw.

So what you can do is to put in your new injector. Time the draw from when BD starts to when the brine has been sucked down, and then use that time, rather than the estimated time, to multiply by 3.5 to 4 to get BD.

Appreciate the response. I get it.

I was thinking of drawing a 5 gallon bucket and timing it but IDK if that's even addressing my elevation question. I imagine salt concentration is what's being effected. The "draw" line on the graph but not the "rinse" line. I'm overthinking it as usual but why not try and get the best performing setup possible, right?

I know 8lb/ft3 is common but I wanted to keep the ppm leakage down and go from there.

 

[Reach4]

Filling the bucket from the drain line will not tell you what you need to know IMO.

I wonder if you could use a laser distance measurer to spot the distance from the top of the brine well to the surface of the liquid. The brine float may be in the way of that measurement.

I would also think about a float on the bottom of a 3/16 dowel. As the liquid falls, watch marks you place on the dowel. When the level stops dropping, note the elapsed time.

Here is another idea for your consideration: run two wires down the edge of a 1-inch (for example) insulating strip. Monitor the resistance. I expect the resistance to be a function of how much of the electrodes are in the liquid. It will not be a direct function, because the liquid in the brine tube is usually stratified, so higher in the tube has less brine concentration. For this purpose, maybe you could agitate the liquid enough to make the concentration more uniform.

Another idea: When the salt level has dropped, scoop the salt to the side of the brine tank, so that the side of the brine tube will be visible, yet the salt piled away from the brine tube lets the brine in the main area of the brine tank get saturated. Shine a bright flashlight down the brine tube. You should be able to see the liquid in the brine tube thru the translucent plastic. Note how long into BD the liquid level stops falling.

I suspect you saw this: https://www.watertreatmentguide.com/achieving_brine_efficiency_in_softening.htm

So based on that, even tho it recommends #0, using #00 will work as well or better. Your concern is that in the face of the extra head on the brine line, that you would want to compensate even more. I think that the rate affect the time that the salt is in contact with the resin, and I would think the concentration should be similar with the different injectors.

The only downside to slower, I think, is that the softener is in bypass that much longer (in BF). During brine fill, the softener is not in bypass.

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

Filling the bucket from the drain line will not tell you what you need to know IMO.

I wonder if you could use a laser distance measurer to spot the distance from the top of the brine well to the surface of the liquid. The brine float may be in the way of that measurement.

I would also think about a float on the bottom of a 3/16 dowel. As the liquid falls, watch marks you place on the dowel. When the level stops dropping, note the elapsed time.

Here is another idea for your consideration: run two wires down the edge of a 1-inch (for example) insulating strip. Monitor the resistance. I expect the resistance to be a function of how much of the electrodes are in the liquid. It will not be a direct function, because the liquid in the brine tube is usually stratified, so higher in the tube has less brine concentration. For this purpose, maybe you could agitate the liquid enough to make the concentration more uniform.

Another idea: When the salt level has dropped, scoop the salt to the side of the brine tank, so that the side of the brine tube will be visible, yet the salt piled away from the brine tube lets the brine in the main area of the brine tank get saturated. Shine a bright flashlight down the brine tube. You should be able to see the liquid in the brine tube thru the translucent plastic. Note how long into BD the liquid level stops falling.

I suspect you saw this: https://www.watertreatmentguide.com/achieving_brine_efficiency_in_softening.htm

So based on that, even tho it recommends #0, using #00 will work as well or better. Your concern is that in the face of the extra head on the brine line, that you would want to compensate even more. I think that the rate affect the time that the salt is in contact with the resin, and I would think the concentration should be similar with the different injectors.

The only downside to slower, I think, is that the softener is in bypass that much longer (in BF). During brine fill, the softener is not in bypass.

I don't mean timing the drain line. I was thinking just fill a bucket with 5gal and run a BD cycle and time how long it take to draw that out @ garage elevation.

I did see that link you posted and according to that I need 0.393 - 0.495gpm for a 12" resin tank. That falls right in the the chart for the violet injector when my water pressure is 40-60PSI. Perfect... Now I understand why Pentair wants a regulated cap on the injector. Takes the curve of the slow rinse out of the equation.

I'm not too concerned with being in bypass. @ditttohead sold me an ozone setup for my iron and it works fantastic. If someone flushed a toilet in the middle of the night I won't have a brown bowl in the morning.

Thanks for the discussion it helped. I will update this once I check the draw rate to confirm to anyone else changes due to elevation.

 

[Reach4]

I don't mean timing the drain line. I was thinking just fill a bucket with 5gal and run a BD cycle and time how long it take to draw that out @ garage elevation.

I like that! Maybe duplicate that test with the bucket next to the softener.

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

I like that! Maybe duplicate that test with the bucket next to the softener.

Good idea, I will do that. Will post results before the end of the week.

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

Got my violet injector today and ran the tests. Updated post #1 for future reference. These injector engineers know what the heck they are doing cause my numbers are basically spot on with their chart. The elevated tank sends about 5% more brine into the mix.

One major discrepancy I have is the BF rate. The BLFC says .5gpm but I'm measuring .28gpm. I checked all the screens and stuff and all looks fine. Just going to adjust time accordingly.