Fleck 5600, twin 1054 tanks and chlorine injection. Valve leak, media replace

spiro · Aug 14, 2019

Update: Called the lab. They where able to test for bacteria and the results where negative. I wont have any preliminary results on anything else until Monday the earliest. In the mean time I'm continuing my research and came across something scary which might also explain why my chlorine injection AND CARBON FILTER is located at the end of the cycle and not as the first step: I'm quoting a section from this page:https://www.nj.gov/dep/rpp/rms/agreedown/radwater.pdf. It basically says that CARBON IS NOT TO BE USED UNTIL THE WATER IS FREE OF RADON OTHERWISE THE CARBON CAN BECOME A RADIOACTIVE SOURCE

"If you are currently using an activated carbon system to treat your well water, and your gross alpha results indicate that treatment is 4 The DEP recommends the following actions for homeowners who test and are concerned about radioactivity in their drinking water:  If testing shows that gross alpha activity is greater than 15 picocuries per liter, water treatment is recommended.  If gross alpha activity is greater than 5 but less than 15 picocuries per liter, testing for Radium 226 and Radium 228 is advised. If the combined radium levels are above 5 picocuries per liter, water treatment is recommended. Alternatively, a homeowner may evaluate the additional cost of radium testing and determine whether it is better simply to proceed to water treatment.  If gross alpha activity is less than 5 picocuries per liter, no further action is required. necessary, then the treatment system for gross alpha should be placed before the carbon filter. This is to prevent possible accumulation of radioactivity on the carbon bed. For further information on all such units, contact your local health officer to determine which type is best for your home and water quality situation before installing a radioactivity removal system. (Ask if a local health department permit is required.) If you install a water treatment system, conduct another gross alpha test after the installation to verify that the system is working effectively to reduce radioactivity to an acceptable level."

Same papers also reads the following!
"How Can I Reduce Radioactivity? You can reduce radioactivity in your drinking water by selecting one of the following options:  Hook up to a municipal water system if this option is available.  Install a water softener or ion exchange water treatment system (known as a point-of-entry system).  For the average home, this is usually the most feasible and cost effective method of reducing radioactivity in drinking......"

I wasn't aware that ion exchange eliminates radon and _I will look into the chemistry involved going forward_. Im simply posting this now for the benefit of the users in this forum.

Reach4 · Aug 14, 2019

spiro said:
I wasn't aware that ion exchange eliminates radon and _I will look into the chemistry involved going forward_. Im simply posting this now for the benefit of the users in this forum.

Pretty incredible sounding, ... and very suspect. I look forward to what you find further.

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

spiro · Aug 14, 2019

Reach4 said:
Pretty incredible sounding, ... and very suspect. I look forward to what you find further.

Gsmith22 · Aug 14, 2019

Radon is a noble gas - it is in the far most right column of the periodic table. As a noble gas, it has a full complement of electrons in its outer shell (high school physics coming back here) meaning that it really, really doesn't want to form ions (electrons being added or taken away to form a charged atom) and correspondingly doesn't want to combine with other elements to form different compounds. Radon tends to stay as radon (it can have radioactive isotopes but that is a different not involving the amount of electrons). All noble gases (far right column of periodic table) behave this way. I bring this up because in order for ion exchange (both softening (cation exchange) and anion exchange) to remove something dissolved in water, the process requires the dissolved atoms to have a charge in order to remove them and replace them with something else (such as Na+ for softening or Cl- for anion exchange when using salt). So , ion exchange won't reliably work to remove radon because it isn't generally found as an ion in water (I say generally because nature doesn't always follow the textbook). If you want to remove radon effectively, your choices are GAC (for relatively low amounts) or aeration (for relatively high amounts). I use GAC because my level is low, it is an easier process that I was already using for taste and odor, and I plan on preemptively replacing the carbon at the 2yr mark so I don't accumulate radioactivity (radon decays to a variety of radioactive isotopes ending in radioactive lead). What method is utilized depends on how much radon exists in the water, what other treatments you are performing, the space you have for equipment (aeration units can be big), and budgets.

Looking back at your first post, you indicated a low amount of gross alpha - that probably isn't from radon (the gas) but rather from radium and/or uranium. You would have to have the water tested for those elements in order to know for sure. Those elements are typically found as radioactive isotopes in rock underlying NJ. Radium tends to form positive ions in water and can be removed via standard water softening. Uranium at the pH of drinking water tends to form negative ions and can be removed via anion exchange. Ask me how I know: https://terrylove.com/forums/index....h-gross-alpha-radium-uranium-and-radon.81450/

Ultimately, my final system included: spin down filter (well debris) -> water softener/cation exchange tank (hardness, radium) -> anion exchange tank (uranium) -> activated carbon tank (radon, taste, odor, general polishing) -> nano filtration tank (0.2micron filtration)-> soda ash injection (raise pH) -> house

Take it step at a time. you won't have the same system as me because it treats my water issues, but think of it as parts treating specific problems that all work together as a system. For instance, the anion exchange should have soft water fed to it so that meant the cation exchange had to go before it. anion reduces pH so that meant soda ash was going after it. I didn't want to to clog the fine filtration so soda ash went after it, etc.

spiro · Aug 15, 2019

gsmith22 said:
Radon is a noble gas - it is in the far most right column of the periodic table. As a noble gas, it has a full complement of electrons in its outer shell (high school physics coming back here) meaning that it really, really doesn't want to form ions (electrons being added or taken away to form a charged atom) and correspondingly doesn't want to combine with other elements to form different compounds. Radon tends to stay as radon (it can have radioactive isotopes but that is a different not involving the amount of electrons). All noble gases (far right column of periodic table) behave this way. I bring this up because in order for ion exchange (both softening (cation exchange) and anion exchange) to remove something dissolved in water, the process requires the dissolved atoms to have a charge in order to remove them and replace them with something else (such as Na+ for softening or Cl- for anion exchange when using salt). So , ion exchange won't reliably work to remove radon because it isn't generally found as an ion in water (I say generally because nature doesn't always follow the textbook). If you want to remove radon effectively, your choices are GAC (for relatively low amounts) or aeration (for relatively high amounts). I use GAC because my level is low, it is an easier process that I was already using for taste and odor, and I plan on preemptively replacing the carbon at the 2yr mark so I don't accumulate radioactivity (radon decays to a variety of radioactive isotopes ending in radioactive lead). What method is utilized depends on how much radon exists in the water, what other treatments you are performing, the space you have for equipment (aeration units can be big), and budgets.

Looking back at your first post, you indicated a low amount of gross alpha - that probably isn't from radon (the gas) but rather from radium and/or uranium. You would have to have the water tested for those elements in order to know for sure. Those elements are typically found as radioactive isotopes in rock underlying NJ. Radium tends to form positive ions in water and can be removed via standard water softening. Uranium at the pH of drinking water tends to form negative ions and can be removed via anion exchange. Ask me how I know: https://terrylove.com/forums/index....h-gross-alpha-radium-uranium-and-radon.81450/

Ultimately, my final system included: spin down filter (well debris) -> water softener/cation exchange tank (hardness, radium) -> anion exchange tank (uranium) -> activated carbon tank (radon, taste, odor, general polishing) -> nano filtration tank (0.2micron filtration)-> soda ash injection (raise pH) -> house

Take it step at a time. you won't have the same system as me because it treats my water issues, but think of it as parts treating specific problems that all work together as a system. For instance, the anion exchange should have soft water fed to it so that meant the cation exchange had to go before it. anion reduces pH so that meant soda ash was going after it. I didn't want to to clog the fine filtration so soda ash went after it, etc.

@gsmith22. Thank you for your insight. I will simply have to wait for the test results to come back for a decision on chemical treatment _hopefully by Monday or Tuesday_ In the mean time, while trying to research my options, I think a big part or the first part of my problem lies in the fact that I'm getting a lot of mud/silt/dirt from the well which initially clogs my first inline filter and so I will have to deal with that first in order to give any of the following stages the chance to work properly. In your very thoughtful and informative write up above you mention a "spin down filter (well debris)" . What type of filter do you use? what is i'ts capacity? is it automatic flashing or do you have to manually operate it in order to flush out the collected debris?. My idea was to install an inverted conical storage tank with an electronic valve at the cone to periodically flush out the settled debris. This would give me a sizable water supply in the event of some failure and might also help aerate some gasses. I would also use my existing chlorine injection and carbon tank to keep that water sanitized. I'm now re-thinking this concept, realizing that a big storage tank like that would be exposed to basement air and might draw in some contaminants this way. I would also love to do away with the chlorine been part of the system and that's why i'm asking about the spin down filter. Bannerman suggested this earlier and I have purchased a "lakos twist to clean spin down filter" but it looked too small and haven't installed it yet. I don't have a drain near by. Would the water pressure push the debris out to the waste line I use for the softener which is mounted on the ceiling?

PS I completely understand your explanation on the structure of the radon gas and that's why I was confused about the claim on that website. It did not suggest to treat Radium with ion exchange but Radon, which as you very well point out cannot happen with any degree of efficiency. Maybe it was a typo or I'm misreading it. What I didn't know is that Radon in a carbon tank could result in accumulation of gamma radiation. I thought that might have been the reason that contrary to everyone else's suggestion my chlorine injection and subsequently the GAC tank was at the end stage. Upon further research I realize that the accumulated radiation would not be significant and would probably only affect the immediate area surrounding the GAC tank.

Gsmith22 · Aug 15, 2019

For the spin down filter, I have this: https://www.atlasfiltri.com/en/products/self-cleaning-filters/single-stage/hydra it filters similar to your Lakos but cleans itself by just opening a ball valve at the bottom. video of it in action here: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/atlas-filtri-hydra-video.69789/ Mine filters for 90 micron but there is an option for 50 micron (particle size it will filter). They aren't meant to catch any and all particulate in water, just the bigger stuff so you aren't clogging up other treatments down the line.

full disclosure, I bought all my stuff from user dittohead. he was super helpful, probably spent over an hour or more on the phone on two occasions answering all my questions and his prices were very good for professional level equipment. I'm not an advertising arm of his company - I just had a very good experience. I did look up similar equipment (but typically non-professional level stuff) on the internet to compare and they were almost always the same or more expensive (if price is a concern). The only issue being in NJ was that freight shipping from CA was expensive (~$600, can't recall actual amount). Regardless, even with that shipping, all of the equipment still cost less than local suppliers, I wanted to DIY it anyway, and all local outfits required them to perform installation (so I had to pay for their labor). More importantly, the local outfits seemed to want to install what they know and not necessarily what I needed for my specific well. For instance, one local outfit that dealt with radon (a minor problem I had but not THE problem) wanted to put two carbon tanks in while providing a small combined cation and anion exchange system for the radium and uranium (THE problem). I surmised that because they typically dealt with radon, they know carbon but not say anion exchange. So you really do have to be careful and make sure your system is designed (correct components), sized (tanks big enough to handle what needs to be filtered for the expected volume and flow), and setup (order of treatment correct) to deal with your specific issues. Which begins with getting the well test results. So hold off on any system design prior to that. This forum is a wealth of knowledge that I have had the pleasure to absorb over the last year.

Gsmith22 · Aug 15, 2019

just to add, don't assume that just because a particular system was installed in your house that it was done properly or for a specific issue. Get the well tests first and then decide what to do. Maybe its right, maybe not but the well test will shed light on that. What was installed in my house was a joke and didn't deal with half of what was an issue. The prior owner was cheap and didn't want to spend money on a test so he had leaky faucets (low pH damaged valves/seats) and drank uranium for 30 years.

Bannerman · Aug 15, 2019

Ditttohead operates a wholesale distribution business and so normally does not sell to the public. If he supplied your equipment directly, he did you a favour and so that is a private matter between the two of you. If he wishes to offer similar to other forum posters privately, that is his choice and should not be expected or considered a regular practice.

spiro · Aug 15, 2019

gsmith22 said:
For the spin down filter, I have this: https://www.atlasfiltri.com/en/products/self-cleaning-filters/single-stage/hydra it filters similar to your Lakos but cleans itself by just opening a ball valve at the bottom. video of it in action here: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/atlas-filtri-hydra-video.69789/ Mine filters for 90 micron but there is an option for 50 micron (particle size it will filter). They aren't meant to catch any and all particulate in water, just the bigger stuff so you aren't clogging up other treatments down the line.

full disclosure, I bought all my stuff from user dittohead. he was super helpful, probably spent over an hour or more on the phone on two occasions answering all my questions and his prices were very good for professional level equipment. I'm not an advertising arm of his company - I just had a very good experience. I did look up similar equipment (but typically non-professional level stuff) on the internet to compare and they were almost always the same or more expensive (if price is a concern). The only issue being in NJ was that freight shipping from CA was expensive (~$600, can't recall actual amount). Regardless, even with that shipping, all of the equipment still cost less than local suppliers, I wanted to DIY it anyway, and all local outfits required them to perform installation (so I had to pay for their labor). More importantly, the local outfits seemed to want to install what they know and not necessarily what I needed for my specific well. For instance, one local outfit that dealt with radon (a minor problem I had but not THE problem) wanted to put two carbon tanks in while providing a small combined cation and anion exchange system for the radium and uranium (THE problem). I surmised that because they typically dealt with radon, they know carbon but not say anion exchange. So you really do have to be careful and make sure your system is designed (correct components), sized (tanks big enough to handle what needs to be filtered for the expected volume and flow), and setup (order of treatment correct) to deal with your specific issues. Which begins with getting the well test results. So hold off on any system design prior to that. This forum is a wealth of knowledge that I have had the pleasure to absorb over the last year.

That's why I'm trying to DIY also. I haven't come across a knowledgeable, honest local company yet. The experience you described mirrors mine 100%. They want to use what they sell and are not willing to go into specifics or back up their claims. Like I said before I don't blame them, NJ is an expensive place to do business but we have a choice. Educate ourselves on whats important and be prepared to DIY if it comes to that. If money isn't a problem one can design the system and then hire the pros just for the installation. Thanks again for your contribution

Gsmith22 · Aug 15, 2019

bannerman, I'm not suggesting everyone should contact him or that he should make himself available for everyone to contact him. I was simply summarizing what happened with me. He (and you) freely provide their time here and are a great resource. I didn't set out to have him supply anything to me nor did I expect it. The atlas filter I linked has very limited distribution in the US so there was bound to be a question regarding where I got it

spiro · Aug 20, 2019

Some progress. Preliminary test results show High Turbidity (200) and sulfate (20) everything else up to now is marked ND. will update when complete

spiro · Aug 22, 2019

Ok. I finally got my test results. Everything with a result is posted below.

Calcium 27.8 mg/L

Copper 0.099 mg/L

Iron 17.516 mg/L

Lithium 0.009 mg/L

Magnesium 2.47 mg/L

Manganese 0.122 mg/L

Potassium 1.9 mg/L

Silica 19.2 mg/L

Sodium 3 mg/L

Strontium 0.135 mg/L

Zinc 0.024 mg/L 5

Alkalinity (Total as CaCO3) 66 mg/L -- 20

Hardness 79 mg/L 100 NTL Internal 10

pH 6.8 pH

Total Dissolved Solids 130 mg/

Turbidity 200.0 NTU

Sulfate 20.0 mg/L

Fleck 5600, twin 1054 tanks and chlorine injection. Valve leak, media replace

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