Fair practice?

[drdodson]

The plumber (employee of a plumbing place with several plumber employees) showed up yesterday to install the new toto, hook up the new kitchen sink, faucet, soap dispenser, and hot water dispenser. It was estimated this would take 3-4 hours at $85/hour. The plumber shows up with an apprentice. During their three hours here the apprentice installed part of the toilet while the main plumber worked on the faucet. He then mostly played fetch. When presented with the bill, I was charged an additional $50/hour for the apprentice. I had to pay before they could leave, so I did. Should I call up the main office and complain today? And do you have a satellite office in Portland, OR for future plumbing needs?

 

[hj]

charge

That is a tough one without knowing more about the job. If the second person was needed for some phase, then obviously it would not have made sense for the company to come and pick him up after that phase was done, but the person also had to be paid for his time. In that case, your bill was correct. If the second person was not needed, then he should not have been sent on the job in the first place, in which case, the bill might be incorrect, but there is a good chance the plumber might have taken more time since he would have to have done what the second person did do, so his time charge would have been more. I might question the $50.00 per hour, but it depends on a lot of variables that we do not know. The dividing line is when the second person saves the plumber enough time so that his labor charge is less than the amount the plumber would have charged for the amount of time that was saved. I.e., If the second person saved the plumber two hours of his time, (assuming the job would have taken him 5 hours), and the total time for both on the job was 3 hours, for example, then the helper would have cost $150.00, but you would have saved $170.00 at $85.00/hour. So you net savings would be $20.00.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Pitterpat]

Did they tell you before they came there would be 2 plumbers?

 

[drdodson]

They did not tell me ahead of time there would be two people coming. I would estimate that the apprentice saved the plumber about an hour of time.

 

[Terry]

And that's why I charge by the job.

The price is always the same no matter who does the work or how many of us are there.

I don't have anyone standing over me with a stop watch while I'm doing the work or trying to figure out a long list of parts that I used.

My customers like it too. Now it's like meeting with friends and having a work party.

 

[Gary Swart]

While HJ's reply makes alot of sense, in my opinion it was misleading to the customer to quote a price of $85 per hour and then bring a second person in at $50 per hour. Here's why. The original quote for 4 hours (max) @ $85 told the customer that the job would cost no more than $340 labor. The addition of the second man saved the plumber an hour, but the customer ended up paying $405!

 

[Marc]

Gary says it all.. they quoted $340 and charged $405.

 

[Pitterpat]

Gary says it all.. they quoted $340 and charged $405.

I would not have paid $405, I would have paid $340 and let them take me to court. Even though I have my own business when I tell my customer a certain price I keep it unless something catastrophic happens.

 

[Terry]

But what plumbing pricing book would "only" charge 4 hours to:
Replace toilet
Replace kitchen sink
Replace kitchen faucet,
Install soap dispenser
Install Instant hot.

That would have been one fast plumber
Lowes Hardware charges $180 labor just for the toilet.

 

[Gary Swart]

Point is, the man quoted a price. If he goofed and the quote was too low, then he eats the mistake because it's his business to know how long it should take to do the job. You charge by the job which I think is the best way to do it, but in your mind as you prepared a quote, you know how long it should take and what you have to charge. Your method just keeps it simple for the customer and yourself at the end of the job. I'm sure there are jobs that you go over the time you thought it would take so you lose a little, but I'm also sure there are times you finish quicker than you anticipated, so you gain a little. In either case, you probably aren't off very much because you know pretty close how much time it will take. Of course, this is all assuming you don't encounter a hidden problem. Then it will take more time and money.

 

[Toolaholic]

my 2 cents

we do a lot of t+m work . when an hourly rate is quoted, that's what it is, t+m

every job is different ,we do our best, but, that particular job took the time it did, and it would have taken longer without the helper. to stiff the co. out of ANY labor on any job is stealing. flat rate pricing would have cost more.

 

[Gary Swart]

I'm not questioning the hourly rate, I don't care if it was $5.00 per hour or $100 per hour. The person in question also quoted a maximum time for the job which was 4 hours. In my opinion, this wasn't an open ended deal of "$85 per hour for as many hours as it takes me and a crew to do it". It was for $85 per hour maximum of 4 hours. If you are a professional plumber, you should know how long a particular job will take, if you will need help, what parts will be needed and how much they will cost. I realize that sometimes unforseen problems can arise which would increase the final bill, but those problems should be discussed with the customer before fixing them and a clear understanding that these problems were not included in the original quotation. OK, I've said all I'm going to on this topic.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

There is a discrepancy of $65 that created this thread topic. It seems very unrealistic to believe that any job goes according to plan. Nonetheless, I understand that the way the plumber went about his business isn't exactly proper by any standard. But if you find out that there was additional work or items of discovery that unfolded during the work process, $65 dollars may be the additional charge that is covering the unexpected event. Who knows. Very rarely can I account for every instance in a job; many things can snowball quickly without any forewarning, therefore it could be unpleasant to give a price and then find out a pipe is rotted all the way back to the stack. A certain price is "fixated" in the customer's mind and now you have to build another "set" price in the customer's mind to give a customer what they want. Most times I have been on the losing end of this kind of thinking because I want to earn my customer's business without having them think I am ripping them off. Then something else breaks accidentally or is discovered and I'm doing the work @ a reduced rate. Been there/done that cannot do that anymore.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Here is a perfect example of what happens in some cases in working with set prices. A repeat customer called me wednesday during my "working" vacation this week. Clogged sink, was there 3 months ago for the same reason, wife was shoving everything but the cat down the disposal. The first time I was there it was a difficult kitchen sink clog; no cleanout @ the base of stack and the clog was 30 to 40 feet away. Numerous bends and turns was taking a great deal of the torque away from the end of the cable when it finally reached the clog. Got it open, now fast forward to this past wednesday. Go through the same steps, get the cable 2/3rds in, cable is super tight and not wanting to unwind back out of the drain. At this point the customer divulges to me that the wife grinded 3 small pumpkins innards in the disposal. Son of @!$%*# Worse than yarn in the drain. I get 7 feet back, SNAP! Cable breaks. I explain to the customer that he is paying for it, or at least most of the cable since he didn't divulge the contents of the drain before running the machine. I tell the customer that I will have to come back tomorrow with another cable, will have to now open the wall in the basement and create an access (cleanout) for two reasons; to get my old cable out and now properly access the drain like it should of been to begin with. (They did not want to do this the first time I was there to clean the kitchen sink drain.) I arrive Thursday, customer has the wall open, I cut a slit in the 1.5" PVC pipe and remove my old cable, then I proceed to cut that slit pipe out and install a wye with a cleanout and reconnect the piping leading from the kitchen sink. Now, this job was supposed to be a $95 drain cleaning call that usually takes anywhere from 10 minutes to 40 minutes to bust the clog. In total the time was 4 hours, the customer was charged for all materials used in the repair/access to base of stack including a $56 charge for a 1/4" open hook cable that was ruined. ( I could of used the remaining length of cable but when I removed the cable from the drain the following day, white crystals were forming on the cable from sitting inside the pipe, my thoughts on this was that there was drain cleaning products used in the pipe, something the customer was adamently denying. So, in final thought, this job went from $95 up to $370 in a blink of an eye. Don't blame the plumber, blame the wife using the kitchen sink drain as a garbage can. I'm sure the customer didn't exactly love the price of the job in finality, it's just that the time spent plus materials drove the price to complete the job and rectify the problem. If I am making any point by typing this onslaught of words, it is that plumbing can be very deceptive and contradict what is first appearing to be "a normal and usual job procedure."

 

[Cal]

My 2 cents:

Think the plumber in mention should have said ," It's $50 an hour for the helper" .Let them know the cost,that way it is easier for a person to get there mind wrapped around a price .
This "Flat Rate" thing can work well for us plumbers SOMETIMES . Like rugged said , If it had been $95 flat rate to open the drain and then the nightmare happens,,,you'd be screwed . I like to give a flat rate on a lot of things i.e: Ballcock replace , faucet cartridge replace , disposal . But TOO MANY THINGS can have unseen problems .I think it is SO important to build a relationship (professional) with your customers thatwhen these things happen they have come to trust and depend on us.Hey,if I've got to charge Mr/Mrs Smith and xtra $150 for unseen problems,they are going to be ok with that because they know that when they call at 9p.m. on a Sunday night with a waterfall in the living room ceiling,,,i'm on my way.

Bad enough the media has potrayed Plumbers Butt crack showing , Beer guziling , Money mongers,,,,,,Why give them more fuel for fodder ?

Be honest , " Look,this is the cost that I expect it to be, We very well may run into some unseen problems, Sorry but that will be additional.I can NOT say at this time how much,I will do my best to keep the cost down especially because we want to keep you as a customer and we would like you to refer us to your friends/neighbors."

Works everytime. Just tell the truth,then you don't have to remember everything.

Sorry for the speech

Cal

 

[Toolaholic]

excellent example rugged

my 5 cents, when honest ,competent men or woman perform improvements
on a project, they should be paid for all time doing so. THE REAL time a project takes is proven by the hours taken! an estimate is just that ,an estimate! this needs to be spelled out in the beginning,when your stock and leverage is high. one would do well to copy rugged's story,and pass it out to customersat the beginning of any job.

HOW LONG, AND HOW MUCH WILL THIS COST?

I'LL LET YOU KNOW AT THE END OF THE JOB !