Rslaback
Member
Assuming enough water flow right? The more the actual flow from the impeller, the more the force to pop the poppet?
Driven point well can't seem to open the check valve.
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Bannerman
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The drawdown capacity for your 30-gallon pressure tank is approx. 7.5 gallons. Even if water stopped being consumed immediately when the pump becomes activated, it should pump 7.5 gallons before pressure rises to cause the pressure switch to shut it off.
If your pump and well system can deliver only 1 GPM, then filling the pressure tank will take approx. 7.5 minutes whereas if the pump and well can actually supply 7 GPM with the current height and piping configuration, then filling the pressure tank should require just over 1-minute.
A swing style check valve should open easily regardless of the flow rate through the pump.
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Rslaback
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I was referring more to the function of the venturi on the built in ejector in the nose of the pump. The impeller is going to pull water through that ejector's venturi tube. As I understand any venturi, the faster the fluid movement, the more pressure drop. So if the pump impeller doesn't pull fluid though the nozzle and then venturi fast enough it doesn't have a ton of pressure loss "pull".
The pump SHOULD NOT be cycling on and off every couple of minutes. But since it is, the check valve is closing every time the pump shuts off, and opens ever time the pump comes on. Starting a pump with 30 PSI pressure against it is much easier on the pump than starting with no pressure against it. It just has to be able to get water to pump.
Again, a jet pump doesn't suck water. It only lowers the suction pressure to a point where the barometric pressure can push water through the foot valve. Without a vacuum gauge on the suction line we are just spinning our wheels. If the pump makes enough vacuum, just like the vacuum pump does, it will lower the pressure so that atmospheric pressure can push water to the pump.
The suction pipe is not the well. The suction pipe will be full of water when pumping. But the water level of the aquafer it is pumping from will undoubtedly drop as soon as the pump comes on. So, if it is 15' before the pump starts, the well water level will be maybe 20' when the pump is drawing water.
If the pump cycled on and off for hours and works fine, only to give a problem after it has been off for a while, you most likely have a small suction leak. A VACUUM GAUGE WILL VERIFY THAT.
Rslaback
Member
I don't think you are fully grasping this well setup. There is no foot valve. This is a shallow jet pump setup with the ejector on the nose of the pump and where the driven pipe is indeed the suction pipe. There is no separate casing. The casing is the pipe and the pipe is the casing. Because the suction tube cannot be pulled a foot valve would be unserviceable which is why the check valve is mounted at the pump.
Here is a picture from the WI DNR informative pamphlet.
I know exactly how it works. Since your suction pipe is a sand point, you cannot tell the water level in the well when the pump is running. If you had another sand point driven close to that one, you could see the actual water level below the surface. I can assure you that if you measured 15' to water before the pump is started, the water level in that area will be lower than 15' when the pump is running. How much lower I do not know. But it wouldn't take much to get it down to 20+ feet, which is getting close to the 24' max a pump can lift. That being said, we are still wasting out time until you put a vacuum gauge in the suction pipe. If the pump isn't drawing a vacuum like the vacuum pump, there is the problem.
Rslaback
Member
The issues are only when the pump is starting after sitting for over an hour giving the check valve time to fully seat. Not sure why you would think that there is a water loss causing this. The pump can pull the water all day long as long as it doesn't stop. The normal water level is at 15'. If the pump has been off for an hour, the water level when the pump is trying to start is 15'.
Again, check valves don't stick like that, your pump is losing prime. After re-reading everything and looking back at the pictures, I think the high spot in your suction line could be the problem. There is enough room in the top of the tee on the well head for air to accumulate over time. This high spot in the suction line will accumulate enough air from the water over time, that when the pump comes on it slugs the air in and loses prime. Otherwise it would not be melting the impeller.
Us a 1 1/4" elbow on top of the well head and change over to the larger casing below the 1 1/4" elbow.
Rslaback
Member
I though that could have been the issue as well which is why I put the vacuum fitting on the top of that cap. Before I moved the check valve up that was the highest point in the system. I tried vacuuming the supply side completely so there wouldn't be any air in that pipe at all when the well went to start and it didn't make a difference.
Rslaback
Member
Finally have some progress and a reliable well system. For those of you who guessed that this was just at the limit of the pump you were correct.
After the pipe ID reduction attempt failed to provide results I got mad enough to pull the top off the driven pipe and shove a length of poly pipe with a 1" foot valve down it and tie that directly to my pump inlet. It looks like hell at the moment but working is working.
As I move forward it looks like I have some decisions to make.
From my research it looks like there are a few 1 1/4" foot valves that will fit down a 2" casing. Do you suppose it is worth it to track one of those down or just be happy with my 1". The wife said she noticed lower flow rate when she filled her watering cans this morning but it still shoots the water 30' high out of the corn patch sprinklers so I don't know that there is a huge need for more flow. I'll try to do a bucket test on it tomorrow.
Poly pipe isn't ideal in this application but I had a roll of it on hand. I plan to switch it out to rigid pipe eventually. Not sure yet if I want to go PVC or galvanized for the drop line.
I also know that I will need to get a well seal to go on the casing. It looks like a 2" well seal is pretty rare to find but they do exist in both a 1" or a 1 1/4" drop size. Still looking for a vendor to be able to buy one.
The reason that I had the well designed the way it had been before is that it makes it easy to pull the cap off the driven pipe to allow the water to drop out of the pipes when the well gets shut down in winter. That obviously won't be nearly as easy with a foot valve. Any suggestions on the best way to winterize a foot valve in casing shallow well. Could I run a long tube down the drop pipe and use my vacuum canister and pump to suck the vertical pipe dry? I imagine that might be easier than pulling out the entire drop pipe each fall in order to invert it to drain it.
After the pipe ID reduction attempt failed to provide results I got mad enough to pull the top off the driven pipe and shove a length of poly pipe with a 1" foot valve down it and tie that directly to my pump inlet. It looks like hell at the moment but working is working.
As I move forward it looks like I have some decisions to make.
From my research it looks like there are a few 1 1/4" foot valves that will fit down a 2" casing. Do you suppose it is worth it to track one of those down or just be happy with my 1". The wife said she noticed lower flow rate when she filled her watering cans this morning but it still shoots the water 30' high out of the corn patch sprinklers so I don't know that there is a huge need for more flow. I'll try to do a bucket test on it tomorrow.
Poly pipe isn't ideal in this application but I had a roll of it on hand. I plan to switch it out to rigid pipe eventually. Not sure yet if I want to go PVC or galvanized for the drop line.
I also know that I will need to get a well seal to go on the casing. It looks like a 2" well seal is pretty rare to find but they do exist in both a 1" or a 1 1/4" drop size. Still looking for a vendor to be able to buy one.
The reason that I had the well designed the way it had been before is that it makes it easy to pull the cap off the driven pipe to allow the water to drop out of the pipes when the well gets shut down in winter. That obviously won't be nearly as easy with a foot valve. Any suggestions on the best way to winterize a foot valve in casing shallow well. Could I run a long tube down the drop pipe and use my vacuum canister and pump to suck the vertical pipe dry? I imagine that might be easier than pulling out the entire drop pipe each fall in order to invert it to drain it.
If you use a tee with a plug on top of the well head, you can remove the plug and use a stick or Dowel rod to push down the well pipe to displace the water. A shop vac will probably just suck more water into the drop pipe.
What is non-ideal for polyethylene pipe?
Also, if you are at the edge of being able to lift water, how about moving the pump to the floor, and maybe put the pressure tank on a stand above the pump?
If you are on the ragged edge, also expect a bit better pumping when the barometric pressure is higher.
Also, if you are at the edge of being able to lift water, how about moving the pump to the floor, and maybe put the pressure tank on a stand above the pump?
If you are on the ragged edge, also expect a bit better pumping when the barometric pressure is higher.
Rslaback
Member
Well is putting out 7.2 gallons per minute at the hose bib with the pump catching the system so I think I am ok with the 1" foot valve.
From what I understand poly pipe isn't meant for a suction application like this, it isn't designed to get squeezed and held in a well seal and having barbed fittings on a suction pipe isn't ideal.
Moving the pump back down would have been an option but in that corner of my shop, space is at a premium. Moving the pump off the tank essentially doubles the footprint of the system.
From what I understand poly pipe isn't meant for a suction application like this, it isn't designed to get squeezed and held in a well seal and having barbed fittings on a suction pipe isn't ideal.
Moving the pump back down would have been an option but in that corner of my shop, space is at a premium. Moving the pump off the tank essentially doubles the footprint of the system.
Suppose you put a water heater stand over the pump. That would hold the pressure tank and pressure switch.
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Yep, 1" foot valve is fine. Poly pipe is also fine. Just want to use two hose clamps per connection with buckles 180 degrees apart.
If space is an issue you can install a PK1A with the 4.5 gallon size tank on the wall out of the way somewhere. Not only will the PK1A work better and deliver stronger pressure to the house, but would cut the footprint by more than half again. Moving the pump to the floor or lowest point is always best.
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