Delta R22000 Shower tub remodel, diverter problem

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G13

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Hello, I just installed a tub and shower and wanted to use a diverter less tub spout for filling tub. I purchased an all in one valve and diverter. It is the Ara Angular model from Delta. The rough in came with the bottom capped and the top going straight into the attached diverter. To the left I connected it to a diverter less tub spout, the top opening to the rain shower and the right side to a hand held attached to a sliding bar. My problem is, is that everytime I set the diverter to tub spout only (left side), the hand held ( right side) let's out a trickle of water, sometimes even the rain shower will slightly drip. When I set it to rain shower (top side), everything works fine with at times a drip or 2 from the hand held. When set to the hand held ( right side) the wand works fine with no leaks from spout or rain shower. Is there something wrong with the cartridge or is there a problem with the diverter stem.

I called delta and they told me I couldn't connect a tub spout to that diverter because of flow pressure, which doesn't make sense to me since the valve sets the flow to the diverter.

IMG_20171010_164747.jpg
 

Terry

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delta-multichoice-diverter.jpg




delta-multichoice-diverter2.jpg


Delta R22000
NOTICE TO INSTALLER: CAUTION!–As the installer of this rough-in body, it is your responsibility to properly INSTALL this roughin body per the instructions given. YOU MUST inform the owner/user of this requirement by following the instructions. THIS ROUGHIN BODY IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR TUB INSTALLATION. If you or the owner/user are unsure how to properly install this rough-in body, please refer to the instructions supplied and if still uncertain, call us at 1-800-345-DELTA. Leave this Instruction Sheet for the owner's/user's reference.
 

Smythers

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It sounds to me like you have a water stacking problem.

From my understanding water stacking works like this:

Your water supply (hot/cold) sends water to the valve/diverter. That valve/diverter is a natural throttle point in this plumbing system, it can only handle so much water at a time, so any excess water from your supply lines stacks up behind the valve/diverter. In a standard bath/shower plumbing setup, the excess water stacks, or goes up the shower pipe. When installed correctly, there is enough pipe in the run from the valve/diverter to the shower head to accommodate that extra water coming into the valve/diverter. If that shower pipe is too short, the water will stack to the point where it will crest over the top and come out the shower head. If the pipe is definitely the right size and up to manufacturer's specs, then it's possible that there is too much pressure in the water supply line and it's pushing the water up the stack at a rate greater than the manufacturer specified.

In my experience, the problem is almost always that the shower pipe the water is meant to stack in is too short, causing water to trickle out of the shower when you only want the tub spout.

You'll notice that if you turn on cold or hot only, you probably won't get the water coming out of the shower head - or maybe not as much. But if you turn on both hot and cold in a 2 handle setup, or if you set it to the middle in a one handle setup, the problem will be more pronounced.

So my suggestion to you is the check the measurements of your rough-in again (most likely where the problem is). If they are bang-on and you're 1000% certain of that, check your water pressure (rare that it would be this).

If it's the fact that your particular spout creates too much pressure for the valve/diverter, then that's where things can get a bit wooly. I'm not a professional, but it sounds to me like you may have to increase the length in the line where your water is stacking to accommodate the extra pressure on the supply side for that particular spout.

Hope that helps.
 
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Terry

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This valve is not meant for tubs. It's a shower only valve.
The warning came with the valve instructions. Someone should have read them "before" it was installed.
 

Smythers

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AH! How clearly I remember now, seeing that in your post above...

There are 3 sure signs of aging. 1 - You tend to forget things you used to know.... and for the life of me I can't remember the other 2.
 

G13

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Hello, thanks to all replied, I appreciate the help.

First of all yes, I made a mistake about the " not recommended for tub spout". To be honest I never went to the delta website, I should have done better homework on the fixture. I purchased online where Delta didn't state the full description on deltas site. That was my fault, I should have went straight to delta.

I'm trying to resolve my issue since I just can't believe that connecting a tub spout to the diverter would cause this problem as delta has told me. If I connected the left side to a body spray I am sure the hand held would've still dribbled.

After reading your posts I think I might have an idea where I was at fault (again). I ran 3/4" pipe as close as I could to the thermostatic valve, increasing the volume of water as far as I could. 2nd thing that might have hurt was having the all in one rough in shortening the distance from water valve to the diverter.

Distance from diverter to shower is 37" and from hand held elbow is 22".

If I were to change rough in to two separate rough ins, 1 for the valve (shower only, since I have a diverter less tub spout) and the other for the diverter. Do you guys think that my set up should run without a problem? Since both rough ins will be spaced farther apart. Or do I also have to reduce 3/4" pipe to 1/2" way before the thermostatic valve?

I've included a pic of my setup before durorock.

IMG_20170515_210735.jpg
 
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Smythers

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Put simply:

The best, safest option you've got is to cut your losses and get the proper diverter for the job you want done.

Put unsimply:

I don't think you'd find a licensed plumber anywhere in the US or Canada who would recommend you continue on this path. And that's pretty much who you're asking in these forums.

If you are hell-bent on McGyvering what you already have there in your wall, I would say this:

#1. Forget about any warranty - you're on your own Mandingo :)
#2. There are no set instructions for what you want to do. There are no manufacturer's specifications to help.
#3. The only way to be certain you wont have problems is for you to test the system thoroughly to the point you're comfortable with it. See #1.
#4. If I had to guess, I think water pressure on the supply side isn't going to be the issue. I think you would need to increase the amount of space available for water to stack in. How much space? No idea. Usually, I'd just check with the manufacturer specs... see #1 & #2.

I'm not a licensed plumber. I'm not even an unlicensed plumber. I saw a guy on tv with a beard talking about toilets one day and now I post in forums. And even I think you should ditch this diverter and get a proper one for the job.

Whatever you decide to do, I hope this helps out. :)






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G13

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Hello guys, sorry for late response but i remedied the problem and moved on to other projects around the house (replaced front door/jamb and storm door and currently running security cameras around house).

I spoke with a union plumber here in chicago and showed him video of my problem. He kind of figured it was a stacking problem like Smythers mentioned above (since he said i used 1 to many elbows on spout rough, when i showed picks). Only problem he thought was that i live in chicago and we are not known to have the greatest water pressure even though i ran 3/4' pipe right up until the valves.

He did say the "not recommended for tubs" in the instructions is mainly meant for wanna be plumbers (like me) that would get confused once they open the product and notice the tub spout underneath is already capped by manufacturer. He said it doesnt matter where you run the copper pipe after diverters (just what i had told delta when i spoke to them).

He asked me to run water out the tub spout and if water dribbled out of handheld, to raise handheld above shower elbow to see if the dribble decreased which it did. He then instructed me over the phone, since it was a complete remodel of the bathroom, to turn on the water from bathroom sink, shower and flush the toilet a few times and let water run for a while (i let it run for a couple hr's), I THINK he said to remove air or air pockets??????

I dont know fellas, but problem solved!!!! No more dribbling water from handheld whenever tub spout or shower is on!

Thank you guys for taking the time to chime in, hope this helps or deters someone from going through what i went through.....lol
 

hj

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I am surprised that a Chicago "union plumber" would think there was ANY air in the line after running a faucet for a couple of minutes. We are usually more intelligent than that, but something, possibly dumb luck, seems to have worked, at least for now.
 

G13

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I am surprised that a Chicago "union plumber" would think there was ANY air in the line after running a faucet for a couple of minutes. We are usually more intelligent than that, but something, possibly dumb luck, seems to have worked, at least for now.


yes, WHAT I FORGOT TO MENTION FROM THE BEGINNING and i had just remembered when i spoke to him after i had posted with you guys was that when i first started the shower it worked fine. The next day I was using the wand to wash the new ceramic tiled wall, when i switched to all hot water the valve made a loud noise. It sounded like a loud car horn and felt like it started to pulse (the wand), i got spooked and shut it off. I decided to turn it back on and thats when i noticed the problem with the wand dribbling at any setting i put the diverter on.

When i was telling him, he was surprised but said it had to be air which was obvious. He came to the conclusion that there might be some air pockets or a problem with pressures in the line and had me run the water for a while, he said might as well run the water to all fixtures in bathroom to see if it remedied the problem, which it did. Been running fine now for close to a month now.

The main thing is I didnt understand why a diverterless tub spout would be the cause of the problem. Im a "union HVAC tech" so Im not completely clueless to the trades but couldnt rationalize how the copper lines and water running through it would know that they are coming out of a tub spout and start to cause problems ( I guess a reguler tub spout with diverter would be a problem, but not in my case as i tried to explain to delta). When i disconnected tub spout and just let the copper pipe spew out water the same problem continued to happen. So what if i connected a body spray to it. Then what wouldve been Delta's excuse for the handheld dribbling water?

Could have been dumb luck or maybe a lil bit of plumbing experience, dont know but im grateful its fixed.

Thanks guys,
 
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