Deep well help needed

[Spencer Nethercutt]

I’ve been trying to get a well on my property back on, it quit being used after seismic surveying in the area was done years ago that caused iron in the water. I’ve lifted water from the well multiple times using compressed air and it seems to have cleared up.

It’s a 2” casing that is said to have a TD of 140’. I picked up a used Gould’s SJ10 that I have wired up 230V. I ran a strainer, a 2” packer ejector with the nozzle and venturi installed on the bottom of 100’ of Poly. I filled up the casing and tubing, installed the pump with the casing adapter and then primed the pump. Would build pressure, but not over 45# even with a closed ball valve on the upstream side of the regulator it still doesn’t build over 45#.

Prior to installing the pump, installed a wye on the casing above ground level so that I could treat the well if needed without removing the pump. I hooked a water hose to the wye to prime the system. Even with the hose hooked up feeding water into the well, making sure I have water coming out of the discharge before powering on the pump, it still won’t build over 45# with the valve closed on both the water line going into the casing, as well as the valve on the pump discharge closed. Shouldn’t the pump be capable of building pressure greater than 45#?

I do not believe I have a leak, as I can hook up an air hose to the wye on the casing and allow the air to pressurize the system to 65# and with the valve on the casing and the discharge side of the pump closed, the system maintains that pressure overnight.

I’m reading pressure at two location, one being the 1/4” plug on the pump itself, where I’ve installed at vacuum pressure gauge. The other location is on the upstream side of the pressure regulator.

I ended up pulling the pump back off, and pulled the packer back up 25’ to a depth of 75’, installed the pump back, primed the system with the water hose, and still the same result. I’ve set the regulator to the suggested 45# and it will barely build enough pressure to dribble out of the discharge. Even with a water hose hooked it ore wye on the casing and a check valve installed to prevent fluid from being pushed back into the water hose, pressure still won’t build over 45#.

My only thought at this point is seals on the pump, I am looking for other thoughts and opinions and guidance. Any an all input is appreciated.

I’ve about decided to make my own 18” long brass rod pump using parts from work and 2” leather cups, and then fabricate a miniature pumping unit that will be belt driven. I have years of experience with these types of artificial lift systems, but water well systems are not my area of expertise.

 

[Valveman]

There are three different jet assembly packages to go with the JS10. That is about all the pressure it will build it you have the FP2-50 assembly.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Spencer Nethercutt]

That would explain a lot. It is an FP2-50, so apparently I need to pull the packer up to 50 ft and reinstall the pump. Or if well has low yield pull out and packer and put a tail pipe below the packer?

 

[Reach4]

Raising the packer is not going to help, I don't think, since pressures are going to be a function of distance down to water rather than distance to packer and jet assembly.

Looking at http://www.pumpsandwells.com/mm5/PDFs/BJ_.pdf page 3, I suspect replacing the venturi with AD725 would give you more pressure if that is not what your jet assembly currently has.
Correction: https://www.lockewell.com/pdf/goulds/jet_assembly.pdf
It looks like an AN014 would give you more pressure if you now have an AN013.

Valveman will have more detailed info. I may be reading stuff in incorrectly.

I see discussion of "control valve". You did not mention that. You might comment on if you have adjusted the control valve.

 

[Spencer Nethercutt]

Raising the packer is not going to help, I don't think, since pressures are going to be a function of distance down to water rather than distance to packer and jet assembly.

Looking at http://www.pumpsandwells.com/mm5/PDFs/BJ_.pdf page 3, I suspect replacing the venturi with AD725 would give you more pressure if that is not what your jet assembly currently has.

Valveman will have more detailed info. I maybe reading stuff in incorrectly.

I see discussion of "control valve". You did not mention that. You might comment on if you have adjusted the control valve.

Maybe I overlooked it, but I don’t see the SJ10 listed in the document you provided a link to.

I did find the document with the data for the SJ10, and is also on pg 3. Looking at the information and the equipment I have, it seems that 60ft may be the maximum operating packer depth.

It shows for an SJ10, with an FP2-50 packer assembly (Ap2 packer body) with AN013 nozzle installed, and a AD724 venturi flow rates for different depths up to 60ft. I would assume the lack of information for the above setup in the literature that operation outside those parameters means that it doesn’t operate efficiently or at all.

I would hate to keep cutting the Poly to different depths trying to troubleshoot the issue, only to figure out I have something else wrong.

Also, when pulling a packer back up the hole, how much resistance should there be? The 2” casing is pvc. I know the weight of the water is going to be 8lbs per Gal for water on top of the packer assembly. When I pulled it up from 100’ to 75’ it was a bit of a chore. It felt as if a vacuum was being created below the packer, which would make sense if the perfs are above the packer. I have no information about what depth the perfs are so it’s possible that they are above the packer. If that is the case, could it also be the cause of the pressures I’m seeing? As the pump is pushing water down the casing, it is being pushed back out of the perfs instead of building pressure to push water back up the tubing? Is there a way for me to determine the depth of the perfs short of have having a well company come out and log the well?

 

[Reach4]

Maybe I overlooked it, but I don’t see the SJ10 listed in the document you provided a link to.

I did find the document with the data for the SJ10, and is also on pg 3. Looking at the information and the equipment I have, it seems that 60ft may be the maximum operating packer depth.

It shows for an SJ10, with an FP2-50 packer assembly (Ap2 packer body) with AN013 nozzle installed, and a AD724 venturi flow rates for different depths up to 60ft. I would assume the lack of information for the above setup in the literature that operation outside those parameters means that it doesn’t operate efficiently or at all.

I would hate to keep cutting the Poly to different depths trying to troubleshoot the issue, only to figure out I have something else wrong.

I messed up... I edited my earlier post to improve it a bit.

IMO, raising the packer is not going to help unless water is currently able to come in from above the packer. It's the depth to water that will matter, and it is what it is. But different venturi and maybe nozzle should get you more pressure. It's like the gearing on a transmission. To get more pressure, you will want the setup that will put you into a lower gear. You want more pressure at the expense of losing some gpm.

Also, when pulling a packer back up the hole, how much resistance should there be?

From reading, it can take some major force. It's not a vacuum holding you back. The weight of the water is probably a fairly minor part. I think you will be overcoming mechanical forces at the leathers. I don't have a numerical guess, such as 1500 lb. I have not even seen such a well.

 

[Spencer Nethercutt]

I messed up... I edited my earlier post to improve it a bit.

IMO, raising the packer is not going to help unless water is currently able to come in from above the packer. It's the depth to water that will matter, and it is what it is. But different venturi and maybe nozzle should get you more pressure. It's like the gearing on a transmission. To get more pressure, you will want the setup that will put you into a lower gear. You want more pressure at the expense of losing some gpm.

I think me and you have different understandings of how these systems operate. Static fluid level is manipulated when one of these systems is installed and operational. When primed, the casing and tubing should both be filled, and should both stay filled unless the leathers are leaking, or the foot valve is not holding which would both cause loss of prime.

The systems works under the principals of hydraulics where flow and pressure are contributing and limiting factors of the system. The pump has to be able to not only provide the pressure required to lift the water, but must be able to provide the flow rate required to maintain that pressure within the system. As the packer becomes further from the pump, the pressure needed to lift the fluid becomes greater, and the flow rate needed to maintain that pressure also increases as you would now have a larger volume within the casing.

Possible that I am misunderstanding this system altogether and would explain the failure in my attempt to get this well going.

 

[Spencer Nethercutt]

Please don’t think I am attacking you or telling you that you are wrong, as that is not my intention. My understanding of how these systems work come from my career in the oil and gas industry. I’m just putting my understanding of the system out there so that someone can help me understand where I’m misunderstanding the system so that I can be corrected. Attempting to troubleshoot without an understanding of the process would be a complete waste of my time on my part. Please don’t take my response personal, as I’m just trying to understand the way these systems operate so that I have the understanding to properly get my well online, and preform maintenance and troubleshooting if needed. I do sincerely appreciate you as well as others who take the time to help people on this forum as well as others.

 

[Reach4]

I think me and you have different understandings of how these systems operate.

I have changed my thinking some. I now think that using more flow through the nozzle will give more pressure topside. But there will be less water for use at the higher pressure. The choice of nozzle and venturi will optimize for volume or pressure. I still think you would want the venturi and nozzle combination that will give lower gpm, but can give more head (pressure).

My understanding is that water goes down the casing and water gets squirted through the nozzle at high pressure. The jet of water sends water up the inside pipe back to the pump. The centrifuge impeller adds some pressure, and some water gets sent back down, and some other water is diverted to the house.

The first 30 seconds of

has an animation.

 

[Fitter30]

Look at pages 87-88
https://www.pumpproducts.com/media/amasty/amfile/attach/Submersible & Jet Pumps Service Manual.pdf