Cracked elbow below closet flange

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OneStaple

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Hey all,

Working on a bathroom remodel and ran into a plumbing question/problem (John Bridge guys told me to ask here).

I was removing the existing closet flange to replace it, and while chipping the PVC stub out of the elbow below where the flange was, as I've done before, the hub on the elbow cracked (see picture). Ugh, brittle old stuff. Is there any way to fix this, or do I need to remove some of the slab so I can replace the elbow? I think I know the answer, but am hoping you all have a magical solution.

Thanks,
Tyler
 
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Reach4

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What is the diameter of the pipe opening (ID) that you have the rag stuffed into? How far below the floor surface is that?
 

OneStaple

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The PVC you can see in the picture is the elbow for a 3" diameter PVC pipe. The top of it is about 2.5" below the surface of the 4" slab.

About 3/4" to 1" of tile will be added on top of the slab.

Tyler
 

Cacher_Chick

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It looks to me like the hole you have there may be big enough to work through. Vacuum out the fill and cut the pipe off and then you can install a new stub, closet bend, and riser. Backfill and patch the floor before you install the new flange.

Breaking the floor will make it easier and by the looks of it you are going to need to mix some concrete anyway....
 

Reach4

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See discussions of the Pushtite 3-inch closet flanges. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/449676/

The one with the metal ring may be harder to find. While metal is more durable, PVC or ABS should work fine for you. IMO, this flange is better for the inexperienced person, since you are not gluing. With glue, you have to get it right the first time.
 

OneStaple

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Not sure there's enough room there to replace the elbow without busting concrete. Certainly worth a shot though. But yes, I plan on mixing concrete anyway to fill the hole. Previous flange was floating over the hole with no connection to the floor, which led to a rocking toilet.

Reach4, you recommending that over a standard closet flange once the repair is complete? I haven't had issues gluing in previous closet flanges.

Thanks,
Tyler
 

Reach4

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Reach4, you recommending that over a standard closet flange once the repair is complete? I haven't had issues gluing in previous closet flanges.
I was thinking you would do it after any flooring is in, but I was not envisioning any repair of the PVC in your picture. You would need something for the flange ring to attach to, however. That is where I was thinking you would need something. Add concrete to fill up more of the hole?

Look at the measurements of your situation. Look at the measurements of the Pushtite. Would the red gasketing fit inside of your pipe where the rag is?

It may or may not be the case that the red gasketing material would fit right anyway. It would be nice if the gasket fit that spot, but that will be a bit lucky. If you could glue a piece of 3 inch PVC into that elbow, that would extend the 3 inch opening up. That would accept a Pushtite. It all depends on your vertical distance I think.

How about gluing that broken piece back into place? Maybe wrap something on the outside for strength. If that PVC had not broken, what would you have used? A spigot closet flange?
 
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OneStaple

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Yes, I will fill the hole with concrete after repairing the PVC so there's something for the flange to connect to.

I don't think the Pushtite would fit where the paper towels are, as that's the elbow, so it's turning immediately.

I need to replace the 3" riser that I took out to get the proper height. Previous setup had a very short riser, but the new floor will be about 3/4" higher (tile replacing vinyl). I would use a closet flange with a hub connection to attach to the riser.

I am certainly capable of gluing that piece of PVC back in place (PVC glue, epoxy, something else?), but is that a legit fix? My impression so far is that the correct approach is to replace the entire elbow.

Thanks,
Tyler
 

Reach4

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I am not a plumber. I would consider it legit. If you want to be extra careful, I would glue the piece back with primer and PVC cement, holding pressure while it hardens. Then slather some slow epoxy on fiberglass cloth and wrap that as a band around the outside of that bell. Sand off the inside if there is any interference with the diameter. Let it harden, and expect it to be as strong than new.
 

Cacher_Chick

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I am not a plumber. I would consider it legit. If you want to be extra careful, I would glue the piece back with primer and PVC cement, holding pressure while it hardens. Then slather some slow epoxy on fiberglass cloth and wrap that as a band around the outside of that bell. Sand off the inside if there is any interference with the diameter. Let it harden, and expect it to be as strong than new.

Or, you can cut off the damaged fitting and make a proper repair. I know which would allow me to sleep better at night.
 

Jadnashua

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Epoxy isn't a good choice! The PVC cement is more of a solvent with dissolved pvc in it...it melts the fitting and the pipe, then when the solvent evaporates, they're bonded together. Epoxy just tries to glue them...it's not the same. Chipping a piece of pipe out of a fitting is always an iffy proposition, especially when they had a good coat of cement in there. It often doesn't leave things very smooth, and makes it much harder to clean up and then cement in a new piece of pipe.

For the next time you find yourself in this situation...there are tools that are designed to ream out the fitting so you can safely reuse the fitting. One is called a RamBit, another is the SocketSaver
SocketSaver.jpg
 

Bluebinky

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Not a pro, but I've had success heating ABS pipe with a heat gun and rolling it up inside the fitting with needle nose pliers. Does this work with PVC?

To me, it looks like there might be enough fitting left, especially if it's clamped and encased in concrete. Hard to say without being there, though. Anyone else agree?
 

FullySprinklered

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I would glue it, but carefully. I would take time to slightly bevel the pipe that will be going into the socket, slather it with pvc cement more than once, then give it a 90 degree twist at it goes in. Give it a generous amount of set-up time before you install the toilet flange. When you install the flange avoid lateral movement, secure it straight down. Backfilling with cement should hold it in place and prevent leakage. Secure the flange with Tapcons or other concrete fasteners.
This being said, I'll be covering my ass by also saying that the best way to fix it would be to replace the broken el, as recommended by others.
 

Jadnashua

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Epoxy is a glue. Surface contaminants, expansion/contraction of dissimilar materials, all, over time can cause a bond to break. PVC cement literally melts the same materials together and has some dissolved PVC material in it...and, if you follow instructions, you've cleaned the surface prior to applying the material. It is an approved, proven method to bond pvc pieces together...epoxy is not. Epoxy is not approved use in that situation, PVC cement is. What you might get away with verses what's right. Especially when something is going to buried in cement...you want it to be right.

Now, if the broken piece was available, I might consider trying to use pvc cement to bond it back, glue on a new riser, and maybe reinforce the thing with some tape to help until things set up, but, the right thing to do is to replace the fitting.
 

Reach4

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PVC cement would be ineffective at making a fiberglass wrap/band to adhere to the outside of the bell or to itself.
 

OneStaple

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While I find the various approaches being discussed interesting, I think I'm going to go ahead and bust the concrete and replace the cracked piece. This seems to be the "right" answer, and I realized last night that it allows me to solve a second problem. And my brother graciously let me borrow his demolition hammer.

The second issue is that the installer centered the riser/flange 15.5" OC from the wall. Previous toilet, which I'm replacing, is built for 12". Even with a toilet built for a 14" rough in, it would still be far from the wall. So by digging up the drain line, I can modify it a bit too bring it closer to the wall.

Thanks for all the help!
Tyler
 

Reach4

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While I find the various approaches being discussed interesting, I think I'm going to go ahead and bust the concrete and replace the cracked piece.
That works.

You probably want to wrap the upright 3 inch PVC pipe with styrofoam Closet Wrap such as Oatey 38712. This maintains a space around the pipe allowing you to use an outside flange. You can remove the styrofoam, after the concrete hardens, with a torch.
 

OneStaple

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Reach4 said:
You probably want to wrap the upright 3 inch PVC pipe with styrofoam Closet Wrap such as Oatey 38712. This maintains a space around the pipe allowing you to use an outside flange. You can remove the styrofoam, after the concrete hardens, with a torch.
Seems good. I was thinking of using a repair coupling (just placed or lightly taped, not glued, so it can be removed later) to achieve the same concept.

Tyler
 

Jadnashua

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PVC cement would be ineffective at making a fiberglass wrap/band to adhere to the outside of the bell or to itself.
I'm just talking about using it to hold things in place while the pvc cement became stable...not as any long-term bond for anything. The cement is what's important here.
 
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