Connecting surge suppressor to spa GFI breaker.

[JMThomas]

I have a 220v GFI breaker/disconnect box on the side of my house near my Jacuzzi. (Culter-Hammer (Eaton) BR24L70RP type 3R). The box contains a neutral bar and assembly for connecting a single breaker, plus an door for accessing the breaker handle as a disconnect along with the test/reset buttons.

I have obtained a small (<1 cubic inch) insulated package containing 3 MOVs with attached wires that functions as a 220v surge suppressor. The ground lead can go to an open position on the ground bar. The other two leads need to attach to the 220 red and black leads, respectively.

All wires are stranded copper. The connector style completely enclose the wire. If you place a surge protector lead together with a 220 feed wire, you can not tell which strand belongs to the 220v wire and which strand belongs to the suppressor as you insert them into the connector.

My question: May I legally place both wires together inside a lug connector?

In the opinion of a couple friends who are engineers of the electrical and mechanical flavors, there is nothing obviously wrong with doing so. The connector surrounds all strands and compresses them together.

But, I know there is a prohibition against connecting wires to each other inside a breaker box, e.g. extending a wire to reach a breaker. And, the code has strange requirements not always traceable to measurements or calculations...

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If this is a no-go by code, how would one proceed?

In a larger breaker box, one puts in another breaker and connects to it. But that won't work in this 1 slot disconnect box.

Also, for the surge suppressor have time to work, it must be attached across the three 220 wires upstream of the GFI.

 

[DonL]

The ground lead can go to an open position on the neutral bar.

The ground leads should go to the Ground, Not neutral.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Stuff]

The breaker and box are only rated for one wire per connector. I don't know what your local laws are but it would most likely violate the UL listing.

First option would be to get a good surge arrestor and install it in your main panel.

If you are set on doing this then use a couple of pigtails and wire nuts. Only prohibition I know of is in Canada.

Other option is to replace box with 4 slot unit and install separate breaker for your MOVs.

"Time to work" sounds like it might take a lunch break. Units are installed downstream of breakers all the time. Just look at what a power strip does.

What are you trying to accomplish with this anyway?

 

[Jadnashua]

I think that I might consider installing this at the spa verses at the breaker/disconnect box. The closer to the device you want to protect, the better IMHO, especially if it is outside. I'm an advocate of installing one at the main panel to protect some of the more mundane things where you don't want to install a local use one (say, on the kitchen counter where another box may not be a great idea for the size and clutter).

 

[DonL]

I think that I might consider installing this at the spa verses at the breaker/disconnect box. The closer to the device you want to protect, the better IMHO, especially if it is outside. I'm an advocate of installing one at the main panel to protect some of the more mundane things where you don't want to install a local use one (say, on the kitchen counter where another box may not be a great idea for the size and clutter).

People say that a Ground is not required for a ground fault breaker to work. That is not true because the electric can take more than one path when it comes to water.

A ground is required to that breaker box so that you do not get fried.

Do you have 4 wires to your new breaker box ?

Those MOVs will do little to protect anything.

Like Stuff asked "What are you trying to accomplish with this anyway?"

Good Luck.

 

[Jadnashua]

A GFCI measures from the hot to the return, or in the case of one designed for 240v, from one leg to the other. Whenever the current does not follow that path, it's going somewhere it shouldn't, and it might be through you. A grounding wire can add to safety, but it does NOT have any requirement to enable the GFCI to work. Surges need a path to dissipate, and it's usually to ground to work, so for that, yes, a ground is required.

 

[Bluebinky]

DonL and jadnashua, IMHO you guys are both right, sort of.

Just for kicks, what if you put both legs of a 240V circuit into an insulated and ungrounded tub of clean water. Would you want to get in there? What about with GFCI protection? Would "grounding" the water make any difference?

 

[Jadnashua]

There's a reason why it's code to use grounded receptacles with no ground when protected by a GFCI (you need to mark each one, though), it is far safer than the 2-prong receptacles that are there. But, a grounded 3-prong receptacle is safer still, but it still has no effect on the GFCI's operation.

If your tub has live wires connected directly into the water, you have a major problem, and it's not installed anywhere near as intended nor would it pass any UL testing...so, it's not really the issue, is it?

 

[Bluebinky]

There's a reason why it's code to use grounded receptacles with no ground when protected by a GFCI (you need to mark each one, though), it is far safer than the 2-prong receptacles that are there. But, a grounded 3-prong receptacle is safer still, but it still has no effect on the GFCI's operation.

If your tub has live wires connected directly into the water, you have a major problem, and it's not installed anywhere near as intended nor would it pass any UL testing...so, it's not really the issue, is it?

I think you are missing my point. Many spas have a resistance heating element directly in the flow of water, and the case of the motor could be electrically in contact with the pump casing (or at least the motor shaft is wet) . If there is no fault path, one leg to the motor/pump and another through the heating element (or one of them through neutral) could in theory cause current to flow through the water and not trip a GFCI. Heating elements can burn out, and a pump can leak water all over the motor (mine tripped once due to a leaky seal).

Pools and Spas just need to be done right, with no excuses...

 

[Jadnashua]

You always need to follow the manufacturer's instructions when installing an appliance...if you do on the tub/spa, you'll have a safety ground. A GFCI helps to make things safer. Throwing in some MOV's to help keep surges from damaging things won't hurt.

 

[Stuff]

Electric hot water tanks have their heating elements in the water. They almost never have a GFCI and I don't remember ever reading about major issues. What's their secret that a hot tub doesn't have?

 

[DonL]

Electric hot water tanks have their heating elements in the water. They almost never have a GFCI and I don't remember ever reading about major issues. What's their secret that a hot tub doesn't have?

They are also required to have a ground.

 

[Bluebinky]

Electric hot water tanks have their heating elements in the water. They almost never have a GFCI and I don't remember ever reading about major issues. What's their secret that a hot tub doesn't have?

True, I've never heard of a problem like that, ever... I wonder how long it will be before NEC requires it?

 

[Jadnashua]

Birds sit on a high voltage wire and don't get zapped unless they are something huge like say a condor whose wings can touch more than one conductor at the same time. If your system was 'leaking' current through you (say you touched the valve or drain), if more than 5ma of current was diverted from its normal path, all of the power would be shut off in milliseconds. On say an outside spa, a near or direct lightning strike would likely damage things and you as well, but if it wasn't that close, and just went through the wiring, surge suppression may protect the electronics and maybe prevent it welding some bits and ruining the motor. FWIW, a WH also has a ground.