Clack WS1 Filling Brine Tank - Can't Figure It Out

[Milanomike]

OK, this is bugging me, so doing some more reading and thinking

The water level seems too high to me, but I'm wondering could this be correct. This is based on some reading on the Aquatell site., which suggests the water in the tank could be as high as 12". Yeah, I know what size tank etc.

I guess the only way to find out would be to run a regeneration and see if the water level remains the same or increases. I don't have a lot of salt in the tank right now, if I had 2 or 3 bags in it, I wouldn't see the water. Maybe I'm crazy.....

Maybe I need to wake up and just get a new softener, though it seems like this one should be repairable and work (engineer in me).

Mike

 

[Reach4]

With your 9x48 media tank, you would expect to refill with less than 3 gallons. Is your brine tank aprox 14 inches square at the level of the salt?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Milanomike]

Reach4,

Yep, brine tank measures ~14 x 12. Yeah, figured it was too much water for my unit.

Something is wrong here, about the only thing left is the media itself unless I've somehow missed something. Searching online I can get the gravel and media fairly inexpensively.

Hardness check on softened water today showed blue right away (using Hach5b kit), a drop made it bluer so I'm calling the hardness at 1 grain.

FWIW, I'm seeing Fleck 5600 SXT units for a reasonable price if it comes to that.

Also, since it's just me and the wife, If I go new, I think I can go down to a 24000 grain unit. Setting it at say 20000 grains total usage at my 12 grains of hardness gives ~1700 gallon of softened water. At 150 gal/day, I'd get ~10 or 11 days of usage, and good salt efficiency (if I understand it correctly).

Mike

 

[Reach4]

If I were to inject 3 gallons into a 10x12 rectangular tank, if there were no salt and I assume that the water sucks down even with the top of the salt grid, I would expect the water to rise by about 5.78 inches if there was no salt. If the whole space was full of salt, I would expect a rise of around 14.4 inches. With your salt level low, then I would expect something in between. If the suck-down level is lower than the top of the salt grid top, that would change things.

If to compensate for the rounded corners and assumed an equivalent area to a 9.5 x 11.5 rectangle, those numbers change to about 8.6 inches and 21.1 inches.

Now you are probably adding a little less than 3 gallons. So the rises would be proportionally less. But I also did not compensate for the expansion that occurs as the salt dissolves in this calculation.

Bottom line, I think the height that you report is compatible with things working properly.

 

[Milanomike]

Reach4,

I need to think about this when I'm a bit sharper....

OK, start with for example 3 gallons of water in the brine tank. Add some salt, which dissolves in the water, so the water (now brine) level increases. That makes sense. Basically, the volume has to increase if I dissolve a bunch of salt in the brine right? I completely forgot about this fact.

Also, note I have the salt in the brine tank much lower than normal as I've been mucking around and didn't want to have to unload 150 lbs of salt too often in troubleshooting.

Maybe it's time to throw a few bags of salt in the tank and see what happens over the next couple of weeks.

I got the Clack bits from softenerparts.com. Relooking at their website I realized they have a ton more info buried in there than I was aware of. Need to study and make sure I understand this a bit better.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[Bannerman]

There does not seem to be a way to enter the water hardness,

Page 17 of the EE Manual, step 21.

Since most municipal water suppliers obtain water from multiple sources, and as each source will often have a unique hardness level, suggest programming your softener hardness setting 1-2 gpg higher than the amount measured at your location. This will anticipate occasions when hardness may be greater than 12 gpg to help ensure more capacity will not be consumed compared to the amount to be regenerated.

used the 24000 grain recommendation for a regeneration.

The water level seems too high to me,

Although you specified resetting the Capacity setting to 24K grains, you didn't mention whether you reset the salt pounds setting as described on page 12, step 9S.

 

[Reach4]

While the saturated brine made from the water you inject expands by 15% as the salt dissolves, the solid salt shrinks at the same time. I don't know how the net total volume is affected by that.

To be sure that the brine can be saturated in time for your next regen (takes maybe an hour or so) I think you want some salt to be peeking above the water, or else stratification can happen. So when you add another bag or two, I would pour it into a corner or side if that is what it takes to have some salt above the liquid.

An example of stratification that you can see, note that the level of the water in the brine tube is higher than the liquid in the brine tank.

Also note that normally, when you do a regen, the brine is much higher than what you had when you did your latest regen. So the resin was not regenerated very much. Trigger a regen with your new higher level, once you see symptoms of hardness into your water. Or just trigger a regen soon, rather than waiting for the gallon counter to count down.

 

[Milanomike]

Bannerman thanks again

Apparently, the software/system was updated after my unit, my manual shows last update in 2009 (and is only 16 pages). I did see the later manual online with the option to enter hardness/salt dose. Took me a bit to realize the newer units have this programming.

Summary, scrolling thru the options using the Next and up or down buttons gives me no option to set water hardness or salt dose level.

Looking thru my old notes from years back suggest that adjusting the length of the fill cycle sets salt dose by controlling the amount of water in the brine tank (to be honest my notes/memory aren't clear). The manual states that the refill flow control is 0.5 gpm. I'm currently set at an 8-minute fill time, so that would put 4 gallons of water in the tank at the end of the regeneration (I think).

Reach4, thanks again

The water level in tank is same as in brine tube. Also, water level has not moved so new stack definitely fixed leaking issue. Will track the hardness.

If I can understand that I'm salt dosing correctly combined with limiting # of gallons softened (based on hardness of 12 (and maybe I use 14 to cover for hardness variability), I might be ready to call this unit fixed. Not sure there is any other way to set up this particular unit.

My notes indicate unit was installed at the end of 2009, so coming up on 14 years old end of this year.

Mike

 

[Bannerman]

I'm currently set at an 8-minute fill time, so that would put 4 gallons of water in the tank at the end of the regeneration (I think).

You are correct regarding the 4-gallons. As that will dissolve 12 lbs, 4 lbs salt will be needlessly wasted each cycle.

If your BF setting will permit 1/2 minute adjustments, you could then program 5.5-minutes fill time to cause 2.75 gallons to enter which will dissolve 8.25 lbs salt. If the setting will only permit whole minutes, then 6-minutes will result in 9-lbs salt being dissolved.

 

[Milanomike]

OK, got it, yeah, I seem to recall I can set increments of a minute. So, I'll set it at 5.5 or 6 whichever I can get.

I'm thinking of bumping the hardness to 14 as suggested, this will give me ~1725 gallons before regeneration using 24000 grains total capacity setting. The city claims hardness is 8, but I'm getting 12 this week, they do state that water can come from 1 or both of 2 sources. I need to keep an eye on this as now we are on the city water, but in the past, we were on the aquifer water which was very hard at 25 grains. They could switch it on me.

Final question before I put this to bed and monitor over the next few weeks is do I need to get rid of some water in the brine tank to get the salt dose where it should be? Or will it self-correct?

Although the principal is simple, I've realized there are a few more details to this than one might think.

I owe you guys are few beers or whatever your beverage of choice is.

Mike

 

[Bannerman]

When the BF setting is modified, the brine quantity will be corrected during the next regeneration. Suggest not removing any of the brine currently within the brine tank.

Our municipal sourced water is obtained from multiple wells surrounding the town. Water hardness varies between 18-22 gpg, so I based softener programming on 24 gpg.

Although our water is chlorinated, we obtained ~14 years life from the original resin, whereby I re-bedded with new gravel and 10% cross-linked resin for greater tolerance to chlorine.

Although we utilize an R/O system for drinking & cooking, I am intending to install a backwashing carbon system to remove chlorine and many other contaminants at point-of-entry.

 

[Milanomike]

Bannerman,

OK, I'll set the fill to 5.5 or worse case 6. I'll keep an eye on it and let the regeneration correct the brine level.

Yes, my water is chlorinated, but I filter before the softener. I have a sediment filter first which feeds a charcoal filter then the softener. So very little chlorine should be going thru the system, yeah, it ain't a perfect world.

If I have problems down the road and need to redo the media/gravel, I think I can handle that, but will post if I need help.

For now, I'm gonna put some salt in the bin and keep an eye on it.

Thanks.

Mike

 

[Milanomike]

OK, I can set the fill to 0.1 on my Clack WS1EE!

I'm at 5.5 right now. Thinking it thru I understand that it will fill at 5.5 x 0.5 gpm or 2.75 gallons which autocorrects to the right amount of brine. Just need to remember all this for next time. I've got plenty of notes and printed this discussion for my file.

Either way, she seems fixed for now. Thanks for all the help. Mike

 

[mko]

Bannermann,

I explicitely registered on the forum to thank you for your invaluable instructions. I have never been told and I have never read a better explication of how the water softener works. Now I understand (a little) and can check out my programming of the valve. Thank you very, very much!

 

[Samsanroy]

OK, I'm getting closer but still not there. Again, Bannerman and Reach4 thanks for staying with me on this problem.

I ended up draining the brine tank only because I needed to be away for a bit. Figured I'd drain the tank and start fresh, I added 4 gallons of water to the tank (just at or slightly above the salt tray in the tank). I added a bag (50 lbs) to about the 1/2 bag I rescued and simply ran a regeneration cycle. Seemed to work well and lo and behold the water is softer than it was as I just showered (need to check hardness).

However, checking to make sure I was home free, after showering I checked the brine tank and geez, its back to too much water in the tank, Its ~5" above the salt tray (salt completely under water). I really thought I had it.

I'm clearly missing something. To review, new stack and the 2 pistons, new injector (red), brine line and drain seem clear, and brine draws like it should, but it puts too much water back in the tank. Maybe a drain issue after all?

I can certainly do the manual regeneration as suggested above but probably not until Monday the earliest, but not sure it would matter.

Need a break from this which is good as tomorrow I've got some stuff going on.

 

[Samsanroy]

Lots of great stuff..thank you
I have a similar issue of brine tank fill up with the Hellen brand e3 water softener.
Tried cleaning the injector , brine tank , float valve assembly but problem persists
Water flows through drain line during various cycles nicely..
This seems like a clack valve and picture is enclosed for reference.
Could you please suggest following -
1. How to find the specification of spacer stack and piston assembly
2. Where can I order the same
Appreciate your support
Best regards

 

[Milanomike]

I am no expert for sure but learned a lot here about water softeners. Hard to tell but it looks like a Clack valve from the 1st photo. Maybe shot of the front of it showing the buttons. Either way, the cover pops off easily and you can most likely figure it out from there. I found the Hellen webstite and the manual for the E3, it sure looks like a Clack valve to me, but others smarter than me may jump in.

I got my stuff I needed from these guys, they seemed were pretty helpful, answered questions, shipped shortly after placing order. Of course, YMMV.

Clack Parts Models WS1 WS1.25 WS1.5 WS2 WS3

In my case, replacing the spacer stack fixed it. Although the old piece looked fine, the o-ring seals wear out. It is an easy swap out; I did buy the tool to undo the setup which made it easy to do. Good luck.

 

[Samsanroy]

I am no expert for sure but learned a lot here about water softeners. Hard to tell but it looks like a Clack valve from the 1st photo. Maybe shot of the front of it showing the buttons. Either way, the cover pops off easily and you can most likely figure it out from there. I found the Hellen webstite and the manual for the E3, it sure looks like a Clack valve to me, but others smarter than me may jump in.

I got my stuff I needed from these guys, they seemed were pretty helpful, answered questions, shipped shortly after placing order. Of course, YMMV.

Clack Parts Models WS1 WS1.25 WS1.5 WS2 WS3

In my case, replacing the spacer stack fixed it. Although the old piece looked fine, the o-ring seals wear out. It is an easy swap out; I did buy the tool to undo the setup which made it easy to do. Good luck.

Thanks for your response.
I bought the spacer stack assembly and pistons from softner parts.
Noticed one of the teflon rings inside the spacer stack damaged.
I just replaced the spacer stack assembly along with piston and now see the brine suction working.
will monitor and be careful to fill the salt hereafter only to 1/4 level.
Again thanks much for every one’s support
Best regards

 

[Samsanroy]

I am no expert for sure but learned a lot here about water softeners. Hard to tell but it looks like a Clack valve from the 1st photo. Maybe shot of the front of it showing the buttons. Either way, the cover pops off easily and you can most likely figure it out from there. I found the Hellen webstite and the manual for the E3, it sure looks like a Clack valve to me, but others smarter than me may jump in.

I got my stuff I needed from these guys, they seemed were pretty helpful, answered questions, shipped shortly after placing order. Of course, YMMV.

Clack Parts Models WS1 WS1.25 WS1.5 WS2 WS3

In my case, replacing the spacer stack fixed it. Although the old piece looked fine, the o-ring seals wear out. It is an easy swap out; I did buy the tool to undo the setup which made it easy to do. Good luck.

Thanks for your response.
I bought the spacer stack assembly and pistons from softner parts.
Noticed one of the teflon rings inside the spacer stack damaged.
I just replaced the spacer stack assembly along with piston and now see the brine suction working.
will monitor and be careful to fill the salt hereafter only to 1/4 level.
Again thanks much for every one’s support

 

[Dino1965]

Same system, too much water in brine tank, did stack last yr and fixed problem now a think a bad compression fitting plastic ferrel is cracked on brine tank tune. Believe this causes air to be sucked in and not water at fill. Could it be as simply as that?