Cast iron baseboard for new construction??

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tropostudio

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We just finished a gut and renovation of our 1915 bungalow in St. Paul. Was a 1.5 story w/ basement and unfinished attic, cast iron radiators, and a 70's vintage Weil McClain Boiler on a gravity fed system. We topped the house and added 2'nd story. It's essentially a new house now. I considered just about every option for heating - cast iron baseboard, traditional iron radiators, in-floor, and panels. We ended up selling all the old radiators and installing Myson T6 21 and 22 series from basement to 2nd floor. Most of them are low and wide, 11" or 16" h.. They only stick out about 4" from the wall.

As Dana has noted, the Myson T6 emitter cost was really reasonable compared to anything cast iron, and installation was easy. They don't weigh a ton. They aren't designy like Runtals, but they work well. In my system, each emitter is home-runned to a manifold, so there are no connections in the walls. Not having to worry much about puncturing a loop or a leak in a concealed connection gives me peace of mind. Each unit has it's own TRV, so temps across the house are staying right where we want them.
 

Chicagoan

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How does putting a TRV on each radiator work? What I mean is, is there an actual thermostat somewhere in the house that determines when the boiler is on?
 

Dana

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Yes, there is a thermostat. TRVs allow balancing the room-to-room temperatures at the desired levels.

One COULD fine tune an outdoor reset controller and let the system run continuously without thermostat control and merely adjusting the water temperature in response to outdoor temperatures, but I only know of one house where the heating system is operated that way.
 

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Just an update to my original post. Overall project cost has come in way over budget. So, I have to cut back everywhere and that includes no in-floor heating. Given that, what are the brand choices for steel radiator panels. There's Runtal and Myson. Any other brand to recommend? (available in the USA, of course!)
 

Dana

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Buderus/Bosch and EcoStyle (formerly Biasi) come immediately to mind. Myson tends to still deliver decent value & quality in some of their lower priced series. Runtal has a certain appearance that appeals to some people more than basic utilitarian panel-rads, priced accordingly.

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ALBI convecting bimetal low thermal mass radiators are another possibility. This type of radiator is very popular in eastern Europe and Asia- very responsive compared to cast iron, but very low water volume, which can be an issue in micro-zoned system designs. They seem to be trending somewhat in Germany & Italy too. The Italian manufacturer Sira is a pretty big manufacturer of this type of rad on that side of the pond, but I haven't seen them in the US (yet). I don't have any first-hand experience with bimetal or aluminum radiators, but would seriously consider them.

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Another comment - it seems the USA is really behind technology when it comes to wide availability of options. I was surprised, after googling a bit, to find that Europe actually has 'designer' radiator shops that provide customers with the ability to browse different makes, styles and colors.

In general though, I shouldn't be surprised since hot water heat has so fallen out of favor in new construction. In the USA, square footage rules supreme while everything else is cheap. I'm guilty of the square footage sin myself.
 

Dana

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Another comment - it seems the USA is really behind technology when it comes to wide availability of options. I was surprised, after googling a bit, to find that Europe actually has 'designer' radiator shops that provide customers with the ability to browse different makes, styles and colors.

In general though, I shouldn't be surprised since hot water heat has so fallen out of favor in new construction. In the USA, square footage rules supreme while everything else is cheap. I'm guilty of the square footage sin myself.

It's not that team USA is really behind on the technology, it's that US'mericans have bigger air conditioning needs than in Yurp, and tend to design AC and heating to use (the same) ducts rather than completely separate heating & cooling systems. It's cheaper to do hot air, but it doesn't quite match the comfort aspects of hydronic w/radiators. When I lived in NL people would complain that it was too hot to work whenever it was over ~70F outside, and would cool themselves by drinking beer at a sidewalk table at the local kroeg. (Who needs AC? :) )

Heating in Europe is almost exclusively hydronic- probably on the order of 95% of the residential heating market. In the US hydronic heating is only something like 15% of the residential heating market.
 

Jadnashua

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Hydronic, especially radiant panels or floor verses convective, is far more comfortable, but as said, if you need a/c, two systems end up being a fairly heavy premium for that comfort! Similar thing regarding drainage...cast iron is still a premium material...lasts a long time, but the primary benefit is it is MUCH quieter...most people go for the cost savings and put up with the sounds.
 

Dana

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Hydronic, especially radiant panels or floor verses convective, is far more comfortable, but as said, if you need a/c, two systems end up being a fairly heavy premium for that comfort! Similar thing regarding drainage...cast iron is still a premium material...lasts a long time, but the primary benefit is it is MUCH quieter...most people go for the cost savings and put up with the sounds.

If you don't over-pump the radiation (the way most systems are) the panel rads can be pretty quiet too. I'm not sure about the aluminum & bimetal convecting rads from a noise perspective.

Once you're committed to installing a duct system for the AC, adding a gas-furnace using the same ducts for heating is dirt cheap compared to any hydronic solution for heating. People get used to it, and it becomes the standard, just as drinking beer outdoors has become the standard cooling solution in northern Europe.
 

Ron Beck

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Don't eliminate the thought of fin tube baseboard which can give comfort. Look at smith products ( https://smithsep.com/wp-content/uploads/Heating-Edge-2-Literature.pdf ). Noises are caused by higher water temperature. They offer a low water temperature baseboard with high btu output. At 140f they can supply 626 btus/ft. That is more than others can do at 180f. If you use ODR and modulate the water temp up and down as needed these will be very quiet. Just another thought even though I feel CI is best..
 

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It's been almost three years (December, 2017) since I posted and wanted to give you all an update on where things ended up since you fellers were so helpful. As a summary of my initial post - was planning on building a new home in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Originally from the Chicago area and lived with cast iron baseboard heat my entire life and wanted the same for the new home.

Here's the update. In early 2018, I came to the realization that building what I wanted was coming in way over my budget. At the same time, an existing home (about 30 years old) came on the market with the square footage and floor plan that met my requirements, even though it needed plenty of updating. I ended up buying that home and selling my vacant lot.

That wasn't the end of the heating story, however. The original part of the house was built with electric heat (!) with resistance baseboards and separate thermostats in each room. A great room addition only had a propane fireplace for heat. At some point in the past, a botched up propane forced air system was installed. While I hadn't yet moved into the house due to the remodeling, I did spend some time in the house during colder weather in 2018. The heating situation was a disaster. Parts of the house were pleasant while others were cold. Supplementing the forced air system with the electric baseboard - for only a couple of weeks, in one room - resulted in a $600 electric bill one month.

I knew when I bought the place that I'd want to rip out the electric baseboards and the forced air system and install hot water heat. When it came down to it though, cast iron baseboard and in-floor heat were both just too expensive. So, I went with fin tube baseboard. The other aspect of the house that complicated matters is that it's a multi-level/split-level, with a stress on MULTI. The living area is on 4 different levels. Even the basement is on 2 levels. Each of the three bedrooms has vastly different exposures, resulting in quite a temperature swing between them, even in summer. I therefore specified separate zones in each bedroom, ending up with a 7 zone system and an 8th zone for the indirect hot water tank (house originally had an electric hot water tank). The job also included piping the house for natural gas and a new laundry room in a different location than the original.

I was kind of worried regarding the lack of choices when it came to plumbing contractors. Also, given the rural area, it's not really possible to specify brands - one must go with what the contractor uses, if for no other reason, to ensure repairs are possible in a timely manner . I used the company recommended by my general contractor (who was doing the remodeling). Although jobs move slowly up here, I have to say it turned out well. I moved in permanently in the summer of 2019. The comfort level in the house during the 2019-2020 winter was a million times better. I'm totally satisfied with the way it turned out. All the rooms are heated evenly without any hot or cold spots and the system kept up without a problem during even the coldest weather. I received a very pleasant surprise with the gas bill after the first cold month. It was approximately the same as it cost to heat my Chicago home which was half the size. I have no regrets going with this system and the fin tube baseboard.

Anyway, that's my update.
 

Chicagoan

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Forgot to mention - was also pleasantly surprised at how quiet the fin tube baseboard is. My only other close experience with fin tube was at an uncle and aunt's house when I was a kid (house built in the 50's). The fin tube there was always creaking, groaning an tapping, either when heating up or cooling off. It's definitely been improved over the last 70 years.
 

Jadnashua

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A well-designed hydronic system will tend to run longer with lower temperatures, so the extreme temperature swings through the radiators won't produce as much expansion noise. Running 180-190 degree water through them can mean things need to expand/contract a lot more than say 120-140 degree water. If outside reset is used, on a really cold day, it might bump that up, but most of the time, the house can be comfortable with a much lower temperature, and fewer on/off cycles.
 
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