No, don't cut anything. Just put a small tape measure down the hole, and use the tab on the tape measure to the top and bottom of that little section of PVC pipe with respect to the straight edge across the top. In other words, measure to the top and bottom of the pink rectangle down from straight edge laying across the flange.
Best way to lower toilet flange
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mich5blue
Member
looks like it is almost exactly 3" to the bottom, and about 1.5" to the top, so the piece seems about 1.5"
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Jadnashua
Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
A 3" section of pipe implies that the two hubs, one from the elbow below and one in the toilet flange are essentially butted up against each other, and there's no easy way to lower anything unless you change the elbow to a spigot version. They usually don't have excessive slope in the horizontal section of the pipe when it must run through the joists with a finished ceiling, so the fact you can press it down does not mean you should...it might just lower things enough to prevent the line from draining and clog frequently because the pipe will become either close to level, or with a negative slope.
So, it appears you will need to cut out some of the ceiling or the subflooring above to reassess what's really there and see if it can be changed to something viable.
So, it appears you will need to cut out some of the ceiling or the subflooring above to reassess what's really there and see if it can be changed to something viable.
I think that puts the top of that piece about 1/2 inch below the level of the new floor. I think that the Sioux Chief 888-ptm should glue into that just fine. No beveling needed.
Could you check my 1/2 inch number and see what you think it will be?
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mich5blue
Member
Yeah, the top of that piece (top of the 3" pipe) appears to be almost exactly flush with the sub floor. Given that I expect the finished floor to add about 1/2" of height on top of the subfloor, your numbers seem correct to me.
There is some play both up and down from this position, but I am not sure how much that impacts the slope of the pipe below the floor.
How would you recommend I remove the current flange from the 3" pipe if this sounds like it will work? Just remove as much as I can so it is flush with sub floor and just set/glue the Sioux Chief 888-ptm inside of the 3" pipe?
Pretty much. It is not important that you cut completely down to subfloor level, but you will want enough cut away so that it will not interfere with the flange when glued in place. I think I would buy the flange in advance to help picture what is needed.
A Pipe Parana seems like a tool that could make that cutting easy, I don't see you needing it. $$$ That Pipe Parana would be intended to let you use an outside flange on your little piece of pipe... Wonderful that your little piece of pipe seems to be in the right place. What you use to whittle away the old flange will probably depend on what you have available.
What will your rough in distance to the finished wall be? With an inside flange, there is limited adjustment slop ("cheating"). Your toilet output to an inside flange will need to be centered on the flange within maybe 1/4 or 3/8 inch. That should not be hard.
mich5blue
Member
Thanks, I ordered the part, it should be here in the next few days. I am going to hold off on cutting any of the existing flange until it arrives and I can verify that it will work.
17.5" on center to the finished wall, and 18.5" on the other side to the vanity.
That 17.5 is not so good. If you pulled the subfloor, I think you could get the rough-in at the ideal 12 inches.
You could get a 14 inch rough toilet, but even that will leave about a 4 inch gap to the wall behind the toilet. How much gap was there behind the old toilet?
mich5blue
Member
my bad, for some reason i was thinking left to right.
from the back wall, the drain pipe is 12" on center
Nice.
Plumber69
In the Trades
I would of plywood the floor and use a flange repair kit
mich5blue
Member
That seems like a lot more cost and effort, no? I would need to plywood over the entire floor then, which is about 80 sq feet
mich5blue
Member
I did drill a small hole in the floor so i could fit an endoscope camera i had in the floor to try and get a peak to double check on the drain pipe below. it is tough to see (pic is upside down too), but it looks like there is actually no riser setup at all, rather an elbow that just goes straight up through the subfloor.
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/57jrdus3rdve1w8/AABL9PS4rT8cQXcSGtOoU3n7a
Jadnashua
Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Without seeing what you actually have, you will not be able to determine what needs to be done.
You either have a spigot elbow (no riser), and if so, it won't work at trying to lower things, or, you have a conventional elbow with a socket on it and a riser glued in. If there is no space on the riser between the two sockets (i.e., they're tight together), you can't really lower the flange. You MIGHT get by by cutting a bit off of the toilet flange's socket and the lower one and using a shorter riser, but that's not a given.
You also really need to know if the slope of the existing pipe will allow you to depress it a bit. Otherwise, you'll be forever having to plunge the new toilet to overcome the fact that waste doesn't flow downhill on it's own.
NObody ever said remodeling was always going to be easy. It may take a bunch of tear out and redo to make it all work. Sometimes, you get lucky. Sometimes, you don't.
Last one I did was in cast iron and the 4" pipe was tight up against a plaster ceiling...a major pain to relocate without damaging the plaster beneath. Drywall would have been a piece of cake.
You either have a spigot elbow (no riser), and if so, it won't work at trying to lower things, or, you have a conventional elbow with a socket on it and a riser glued in. If there is no space on the riser between the two sockets (i.e., they're tight together), you can't really lower the flange. You MIGHT get by by cutting a bit off of the toilet flange's socket and the lower one and using a shorter riser, but that's not a given.
You also really need to know if the slope of the existing pipe will allow you to depress it a bit. Otherwise, you'll be forever having to plunge the new toilet to overcome the fact that waste doesn't flow downhill on it's own.
NObody ever said remodeling was always going to be easy. It may take a bunch of tear out and redo to make it all work. Sometimes, you get lucky. Sometimes, you don't.
Last one I did was in cast iron and the 4" pipe was tight up against a plaster ceiling...a major pain to relocate without damaging the plaster beneath. Drywall would have been a piece of cake.
mich5blue
Member
yeah, it sounds like i am going to need to either open up the floor or the ceiling below to get a good look here. do you have an opinion on which is easier? i am comfortable doing either, just want to do whichever will make doing the plumbing work the easiest.
thanks for the reply.
Jadnashua
Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
I find it easier to work in the floor from above, but it's easier to fix the non-load bearing ceiling. When cutting out plywood, you want enough out to span two joist bays with the center joist holding up the center rather than hanging off of the fasteners on two sides, especially if you're going to tile it.
Cacher_Chick
Test, Don't Guess!
Drywall is cheap and easy if you don't need to match a previous finish texture.
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mich5blue
Member
I know, i know...but that little camera I was able to put in the floor showed there isn't really a riser, it is just an elbow it looks like. It should at least make it 100% certain what I need to do, and patching drywall is easy.
Jadnashua
Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
If you can stand the toilet being a bit higher, you could make a stand for the toilet. You might be able to make it out of Plexiglass. If you have woodworking tools and a template cutting bit on a router, you could machine it to match the curve of the base to gain some height. Polish the edges, and it might end up looking fine.
One thing you didn't probably want to do would be to build the floor back up the the original height.
If you're lucky, there's enough slope in the horizontal section so you can lower it. It could be a major pain.
You might get by with cutting the spigot a little (well, enough to lower things), and then use LOTS of cement so that it melts enough to then slide the new flange on. that assumes that you cut out the existing spigot elbow and replace it. That's not a guaranteed solution...I'd want someone that has tried it to confirm it might actually work. Solvent welded PVC stuff, the cement has both solvents and dissolved PVC in it...it melts the plastic and the 'extra' in the cement helps to fill in any spaces. The socket is tapered, and you generally cannot slide the pipe in all of the way to the bottom unless some of it has melted with the application of the cement. If you cut off part of that spigot, you will still need to bottom it out in the socket of the flange, and that would depend on how long it's straight before it curves and the depth of the socket in the flange.
Hopefully, that makes sense. Isn't remodeling fun?!
One thing you didn't probably want to do would be to build the floor back up the the original height.
If you're lucky, there's enough slope in the horizontal section so you can lower it. It could be a major pain.
You might get by with cutting the spigot a little (well, enough to lower things), and then use LOTS of cement so that it melts enough to then slide the new flange on. that assumes that you cut out the existing spigot elbow and replace it. That's not a guaranteed solution...I'd want someone that has tried it to confirm it might actually work. Solvent welded PVC stuff, the cement has both solvents and dissolved PVC in it...it melts the plastic and the 'extra' in the cement helps to fill in any spaces. The socket is tapered, and you generally cannot slide the pipe in all of the way to the bottom unless some of it has melted with the application of the cement. If you cut off part of that spigot, you will still need to bottom it out in the socket of the flange, and that would depend on how long it's straight before it curves and the depth of the socket in the flange.
Hopefully, that makes sense. Isn't remodeling fun?!
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