AIO3 or Full on Ozone System

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Beets

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If you've been following my other threads, you will know I have H2S and bacteria, with bacteria fouling that is my main problem.

I've been debating trying an AIO3 system. I really like the simplicity. However, I know I have bacteria and with the filter sanitized once a day, I can be pretty much guaranteed of having bacteria throughout the house and having to sanitize the house on occasion. At the moment, my water is good except there is H2S in the lines going to the downstairs bathroom.

I have been asking myself (and now I'm asking you), why I wouldn't go with a full fledged ozone system instead? I already have a 80 gallon contact tank. I already have a micronizer. I already have centaur carbon filter. I already have a degassifier. In short, I have pretty much all of the equipment to build a system like this one: https://www.oxidationtech.com/media.../home_ozone_system_-_well_water_with_tank.png I think a system like this would give me more continuous sanitization, and because I don't need to buy a new head for my carbon tank, it might be in a somewhat similar price range as AIO3.

In some of my other threads, I've mentioned that it isn't uncommon for bacteria to foul my carbon filter. So far, I've tried hydrogen peroxide and chlorine injection when well pump is pumping to control bacteria. I've been wondering if AIO3, a full on ozonation system like the one I showed above, or chlorine injection protect the media better? I have high pH water (8.7), which reduces the effectiveness of chlorine as a bactericide, which is why I've been wondering about ozone.

Am I on the wrong track?
 

Beets

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I googled and read every thread I could find on Ozone in this forum. I found a handful of folks using AIO3. It is clear that AIO3 is infinitely better than AIO when bacteria are present as that is oft repeated wisdom, however I'm not certain it is adequate for all bacteria? I see there is a lot of backwashing involved. Every night is normal. Perhaps every 2nd night if lucky. I know ozone is drawn into the media for 40 or 45 minutes. It isn't clear to me how much water goes to drain during that 40 or 45 minutes.

I found a handful of folks talking about using a "full" ozone system , but I couldn't find anyone that had actually installed one. @Dittohead shared a drawing of a system he installs here. Given so little information on the internet, I feel like Ozone could be a fairly expensive endeavor for the DIY to figure out with lots of trial and ERROR. Tons of questions:
1) Does a ozone generator instantly fire up and start making ozone? I'm wondering if it can be wired to the pressure switch? If pump is on for 2 or 3 minutes, does it start making ozone in that time? Given that venturi is not going to draw air for last little bit, what happens to that ozone? Is it easy to get enough in the water on these short run times? I've noted a lot of systems have a recirculating pump built into the venturi loop. What is threshold/criteria for needing to take on this cost/complexity?
2) Is the unit reliable is cycling it on and off? I do use my system for watering in summer.
3) How much maintenance is involved? What is life of unit? 10 years? Who makes good unit?
4) Doe 40 to 60 psi work OK for venturis? I don't like running at 30 psi......been there and done that.
5) Why haven't these caught on in residential applications? I know they are expensive up front to purchase, but running to the store to pick up chemicals is not free/easy either. Perhaps they have caught on and folks don't have problems with them and they don't post?
6) How big of an issue is the fact that ozone is fairly short lived? In residential applications, folks typically have a back washing carbon filter after the treatment chemical. Should I expect carbon in a ozone system to foul any easier than chlorine or H2O2 set-up? Would they all have similar risks of bacteria re-establishing downstream of carbon filter?
 

ditttohead

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1) Does a ozone generator instantly fire up and start making ozone? Yes I'm wondering if it can be wired to the pressure switch? Yes If pump is on for 2 or 3 minutes, does it start making ozone in that time? yes Given that venturi is not going to draw air for last little bit, what happens to that ozone? Is it easy to get enough in the water on these short run times? Yes I've noted a lot of systems have a recirculating pump built into the venturi loop. What is threshold/criteria for needing to take on this cost/complexity? Not sure what design you are referring to but there are limitless designs for ozone systems.
2) Is the unit reliable is cycling it on and off? Yes I do use my system for watering in summer.
3) How much maintenance is involved? Clean the cell annually, replace the desiccant if used as needed What is life of unit? 10 years? Who makes good unit? Many good ozone companies out there, we lean toward Ozotech.
4) Doe 40 to 60 psi work OK for venturis? Yes, the main issue is what is the well pumps flow rate? During the pump cycling you will divert water through the venturi and close the bypass so that you have a good pressure differential across the injector. I don't like running at 30 psi......been there and done that.
5) Why haven't these caught on in residential applications? I know they are expensive up front to purchase, but running to the store to pick up chemicals is not free/easy either. Perhaps they have caught on and folks don't have problems with them and they don't post? Ozone is very common, many different types of ozone systems have been used for decades, we sell tons of them to well water treatment companies.
6) How big of an issue is the fact that ozone is fairly short lived? In residential applications, folks typically have a back washing carbon filter after the treatment chemical. Should I expect carbon in a ozone system to foul any easier than chlorine or H2O2 set-up? Would they all have similar risks of bacteria re-establishing downstream of carbon filter? You will not be getting ozone through a carbon filter, same as H2o2 and Chlorine. You should get a real water test, use this link to see a good one... post the results and we can assist you a lot better. NTLWATERTEST
 

Beets

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Thank you @ditttohead.

I've had a couple water tests in the past. I've attached one below. This isn't extensive as the one you referenced. Is there any key information missing? I'm in Canada, so I will either have to find an equivalent test here, or figure out how to get water across the border.

1648815948983.png


One key parameter that is missing is H2S. About all I can say at the moment is that it is less than 10 ppm, and I have another test kit on order to see if I can narrow it down further.
 
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Just a heads up... I ditched my venturi system due to pressure tank and contact tank fouling. Especially the pressure tank. That ozone will precipitate iron in short order and the first place it sits is the pressure tank. Be prepared for that if you go that route. I went all out and replaced my pressure tank with a cycle stop vale then an AIO3 system - thanks to @dittohead. My thinking is keep the iron in its clear state until it hits the AIO3 system/tank. Yes, I will probably have to clean the bottom of that AIO3 valve once in a while but it will be infinitely easier than jerking with the pressure tank.
 

Beets

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@BDrivenByDemons Thank you. I ran a Waterite Micronizer for a number of years sucking air into my lines (not ozone), and I never had to clean it or the lines downstream of it. I'm quite fortunate not to have any iron. Were you adding ozone through the venturi or just air? How long have you been running AIO3?

Does anyone know how much water an AIO3 system consumes during a back wash and then the 40 or 45 minutes of ozone draw? I haven't ruled out AIO3. I sure appreciate the simplicity of one vessel. How well does AIO3 work with Centaur Carbon? I don't think I have the backwash rate for KL.
 
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@BDrivenByDemons Thank you. I ran a Waterite Micronizer for a number of years sucking air into my lines (not ozone), and I never had to clean it or the lines downstream of it. I'm quite fortunate not to have any iron. Were you adding ozone through the venturi or just air? How long have you been running AIO3?

Does anyone know how much water an AIO3 system consumes during a back wash and then the 40 or 45 minutes of ozone draw? I haven't ruled out AIO3. I sure appreciate the simplicity of one vessel. How well does AIO3 work with Centaur Carbon? I don't think I have the backwash rate for KL.
That's what happens when I don't pay attention. I assume everything is about iron and post about that. Sorry...

I was only running air through the venturi.

I've had my ozone installed for a few weeks. The bashwash is only 10 minutes and uses GPM based on your media and tank size. Will use ~ 50 gallons @ 5GPM so figure accordingly. The ozone draw needs much less flow. I haven't measured but it's slow. Mine also starts spitting around 25 minutes in (10" x 54" tank) so I'm guessing I could back off that 45 minute time by at least 15 minutes.

I'm no pro so can't answer about carbon but common sense tells me since you don't have iron you're not going to be filtering much junk and really only need to reseat the media bed. I'd let one of the experts here answer that one for you.
 

Beets

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@ditttohead Thank you for the updated drawing. I appreciate the simplicity of that design. I've been crunching numbers, and my initial excitement for an ozonation system of this type has been dropping. Let me explain.

Depending on who's website I read, I will need 3 to 4 mg/L of Ozone to combat the 1 ppm of H2S I have. I will need another 0.5 mg/L to combat bacteria. I haven't measured the manganese in my water, but I suspect with zero iron, it is is likely close to zero as well, but that might be a foolish assumption. It isn't clear to me what other constituents in the water will use ozone or how much safety factor to build into the design. Let's say I build for 7 mg/L to cover off unknowns, errors in the H2S measurement, ozone manufacturers stretching the capacity of their ozone machines, etc. This might be double of what I need, but without any experience in this field, I would likely have to oversize to be safe.

In a 40 to 60 psi pump cycle, I draw in about 16.6 gallons (62.8 liters) in my WX-251 pressure tank. That 62.8 liters requires 62.8 x 7 = 440 mg ozone. At 6 to 7 GPM (I need to measure my well rate closer, but I think it's in this range), my tank fills in 2.4 minutes. With a single pass venturi, there might be only 1/3 to 1/2 of the pump cycle where I'm effectively drawing in ozone. Thus, if I need to draw 440 mg ozone in 1.2 minutes, that works out to an ozonator that puts out 22,000 mg/h or 22 g/h. An ozone generator of that size is going to be expensive, and more than I want to invest given all the unknowns.

There is another consideration. When I install a venturi in my line to draw in the ozone, my pump rate will decrease and the cycle time to fill the pressure tank will increase. That will drive down the size of the ozonator, which is a positive. However, my back wash rate will also go down as well. I have centaur carbon in a 10 x 54 tank. I think I need 6 GPM for backwash. I am getting closer to 4 GPM today without a micronizer and it will be less with. I've ran centaur carbon in the past with the micronizer in line, so I think it will work but I am flirting with the lower end of acceptable.

One potential solution to the low backwash rate and "oversized ozonator" is to look at a multipass type ozone system where I install the venturi in a loop with a Grundfos pump. Maybe something like this:
1649161838418.png


I haven't crunched the numbers on that system yet. My suspicion is that I could downsize the ozonator enough to more than pay for the pump, and it should resolve my back wash issues. I'm wrestling with whether I want the complexity that all this equipment introduces. I suspect I'm largely on my own as I don't think any water professionals in my area deal with ozone. That means my wife is on her own if I kick the bucket.

Am I thinking about this right? Do my numbers somewhat make sense?
 

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Beets, your math almost makes a case AIO3, load up the carbon filter air pocket with O3 each night with the regen cycle.
 

Beets

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I agree.....my math is suggests that AIO3 is a lot lower cost. The biggest question is whether it is adequate?

1) Is anyone successfully treating 1 ppm H2S with AIO3? Does AIO3 play nice with centaur carbon? I like centaur because of lower back wash rate requirements.
2) During the brine draw, does the AIO3 fully contact the media? I'm trying to figure out how much "disinfection" AIO3 truly does. This post suggests the that it is only a bubble above the media which would suggest to me that disinfection is pretty limited. This thread suggests it is possible to send air to drain during brine draw, which makes me think AIO3 might work for me. Not sure what to believe; even if air makes it to the drain, the ozone might be consumed in the first inch or two of media, so maybe the bacteria still survive? It feels like whomever wrote the marketing literature for this AIO3 machine read about my problems because he describes biofilms and "pink algae". I wrote them for more information, but they did not respond.
3) How much water goes to drain during a 40 minute brine draw cycle? I'm a bit of a miser when it comes to water as I have a 4 GPM well, and we've had some dry years that make me worry a bit.

The downside to AIO3 is it is not a continuous disinfectant. I really like this explanation. Thus, if there are bacteria coming from the well (which I think there are), they will move throughout the house and could cause odors downstream of the treatment. I can likely manage these bacteria through periodic sanitation of lines. If I didn't like how often I had to sanitize lines, I suspect UV downstream of AIO3 might help.
 

Zenon2cubed

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With respect to water consumption my understanding of the AIO is that you'll consume the rate of water the venturi is sized for minus the brine draw, brine draw is replaced with air. From what I've heard these air pocket systems work much better with 60-80 pressure than 40-60, I think there's potentially two effects at play the higher pressure might allow a stronger vacuum to purge more water with air, and secondly the higher pressure will compact the bubble reducing the amount of air carry through during operation.

What about an atmospheric tank with ozone bubblers similar to what the salt water aquarium "reefers" use?
In that case I don't think you'd need the carbon filter anymore.
 

Beets

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I'm not certain an atmospheric system has any advantages (or at least they aren't jumping off the page to me). They occupy more space. Need a booster pump. Low pressure = less solubility to ozone. Bubblers are very poor at putting ozone into solution as compared to venturis. Some good info here.
 

Zenon2cubed

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From your link, here's what I was referring to:

I thought you already had an atmospheric contact tank to off gas H2S, simply adding an ozone bubbler seemed like the simplest incremental cost solution.
 

Beets

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I have a 80 Gallon pressurized tank presently. You are correct about H2S. Around 2006 I tried centaur carbon + air via micronizer. Biofilm fouled the centaur. Then I tried air + chlorine and centaur. It worked OK, but I would get upsets. A lot of that had to due with me listening to the internet. Advice was good, for normal pH water, but not for my 8.7 pH. I either need to add more retention, or continue running at much higher residuals than most folks. I had a mental aversion to chlorine, so I moved to peroxide + centaur. That works as well as chlorine (or air) at handling the H2S. I liked it better till I saw the biofilm. I still had upsets, but I think it was slightly more reliable than chlorine. There is likely some confirmation bias as I really wanted to like it better.
 

Beets

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This professional (US Water Systems) says Ozone or Chlorine aren't great for H2S:

Not sure what to make of that. Everyone else says Ozone works well.
 
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This professional (US Water Systems) says Ozone or Chlorine aren't great for H2S:

Not sure what to make of that. Everyone else says Ozone works well.
IDK but my AIO3 has been the best performing system I've ever used. No more stink, no more iron, nothing. It's sweet.
 

ditttohead

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AIO3 introduces ozonated air into the air pocket during the draw cycle, but remember, ozone has a very short life inside the tank, typically a few minutes at best. It does not stay in the tank for any length of time.
 
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