Advice selecting and installing water softener

[hellspcangel911]

Hi All,
Let me first thank all of you for the tremendous resource you have been. For years I've read these forums, helping me tackle every aspect of plumbing repairs. THANK YOU for sharing your time and knowledge.

I'm at the point where I need to install a water softener in our house. I measured the water using the suggested HACH 5B tester and got readings 22-24 grains per gallon.

Its currently my wife and I with a baby on the way and potentially a second in the future. My wife does a lot of laundry and when we re-do the bathroom we will install a soaking tub:

4 People living in my house x 70 Gallons of water consumer per person (average) X The Grains in my area 24 = 6720 Grains to be removed Daily
Based on Angelo Polinario's write up that puts be just between the 48,000 and 64,000 Grain Capacity Units. My wife and I have erratic schedules and travel a lot, its not uncommon for one of us to be gone all week.
1st Question: Should I go with a 64K unit? What size tank and which model? I'm currently leaning towards the 7000SXT based on what I've read here.

Our home has a 200ft private well, good quality water with no iron. Unfortunately we have radon, so the current setup is:
WELL PUMP - CYCLE STOP VALVE - WELL TANK - TEE to Garden hoses - 10 MICRON FILTER - CHARCOAL RADON TANK - 1 MICRON FILTER --HOUSE
I have 1 1/4" PVC going to the well tank, after that everything is 3/4" copper.
2nd Question: Should the softener be plumbed between the radon tank and the 1 Micron Filter?

Lastly, we have a septic and for a while now I've been putting this install off as I've been told the softener backwash will ruin my septic in the long term.
Last question: I'm planning on running a separate 1" pvc line out to a drywell just for the softener. Any reason not to?

Thank you for your guidance!
-George

 

[Reach4]

1st Question: Should I go with a 64K unit? What size tank and which model? I'm currently leaning towards the 7000SXT based on what I've read here.

You should go with a 3 cubic ft unit with a 14 x 65 tank for the numbers you have stated, if you want better efficiency. That would let you set up for 6 pounds/cuft salt. 2 or 2.5 cubic ft would work. You could also consider a dual tank.

While the 7000 SXT was EOLed in 2016 September, parts are probably going to be available well beyond the promised Sept 2021, it could be a concern. You could also consider a Fleck 9100SXT with 2 x 1.5 cuft tanks.

2nd Question: Should the softener be plumbed between the radon tank and the 1 Micron Filter?

That sounds reasonable.

Last question: I'm planning on running a separate 1" pvc line out to a drywell just for the softener. Any reason not to?

Sounds reasonable, but so would a 3/4 poly line.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

Assuming salting at 8 pounds per cf a 2 cf softener would be adequate, lower salting levels may benefit from a slightly larger system size.

Drain to either is fine, but... follow local plumbing codes.
7000 is good, they are running out quickly but parts are available for no less than 5 years and the OEM's like us will buy a decades worth of parts when they announce the discontinuation. In all reality, the last major parts dump they did was years after a specific valve was even still on the field except for a few stragglers. This was a decade after the valve was discontinued.

After the Carbon system is ideal.

 

[Reach4]

While doing your plumbing, I suggest you add a boiler drain valve before the softener. This would be a place where you could fill a water bottle for drinking, you could draw water samples, and you could attach a pressure gauge.

Some people will pipe the unsoftened water to the kitchen cold for drinking. If you get an RO unit, that should be fed with soft water.

 

[hellspcangel911]

Thank you Reach4 and Ditto for the informative responses. Based on this one being discontinued I'm looking into the 5810 vs the 9100SXT. From a cost standpoint I'm leaning towards a single tank 2cft
Reach4 - I'll plumb it out as you suggested with the tap to the kitchen and gauge.

 

[Rjh2o]

Hi All,
Let me first thank all of you for the tremendous resource you have been. For years I've read these forums, helping me tackle every aspect of plumbing repairs. THANK YOU for sharing your time and knowledge.

I'm at the point where I need to install a water softener in our house. I measured the water using the suggested HACH 5B tester and got readings 22-24 grains per gallon.

Its currently my wife and I with a baby on the way and potentially a second in the future. My wife does a lot of laundry and when we re-do the bathroom we will install a soaking tub:

4 People living in my house x 70 Gallons of water consumer per person (average) X The Grains in my area 24 = 6720 Grains to be removed Daily
Based on Angelo Polinario's write up that puts be just between the 48,000 and 64,000 Grain Capacity Units. My wife and I have erratic schedules and travel a lot, its not uncommon for one of us to be gone all week.
1st Question: Should I go with a 64K unit? What size tank and which model? I'm currently leaning towards the 7000SXT based on what I've read here.

Our home has a 200ft private well, good quality water with no iron. Unfortunately we have radon, so the current setup is:
WELL PUMP - CYCLE STOP VALVE - WELL TANK - TEE to Garden hoses - 10 MICRON FILTER - CHARCOAL RADON TANK - 1 MICRON FILTER --HOUSE
I have 1 1/4" PVC going to the well tank, after that everything is 3/4" copper.
2nd Question: Should the softener be plumbed between the radon tank and the 1 Micron Filter?

Lastly, we have a septic and for a while now I've been putting this install off as I've been told the softener backwash will ruin my septic in the long term.
Last question: I'm planning on running a separate 1" pvc line out to a drywell just for the softener. Any reason not to?

Thank you for your guidance!
-George

I would have to agree that the Fleck 9100 sxt 1.5 cuft system would be your best option, in this application. And it will be much more efficient in salt and water usage along with accommodating your hectic schedule. if you are going to have an inline filter I would suggest it goes before the water softener. Why the 1 micron? Generally a 5-30 micron is sufficient, depending on sediment issues. A 1 micron will significantly restrict the water pressure and plug frequently, if sediment is present. If you are going to run a drywell I would suggest an 1 1/2" PVC line to your drywell with an overflow as it comes out of the house. Just in case of freezing, line plug or back up so water softener still works. This pic shows system run to storm sewer (3" pvc) but you can do the same with 1 1/2 pvc. The vented cap acts as the air gap/overflow

 

[hellspcangel911]

What makes the 9100SXT a better solution? I guess im not quite sure how they are different than the 7000 and the 5810?
The 1 micron filter was put in place after the radon unit was installed to catch any of the run away media. both filters are quite clean after 6 months and water pressure hasnt been an issue with the well switch set to 40/60 and the CSV installed (running a 3/4hp submersible well pump).
I like youre air gap/overflow idea, thank you for posting that.

 

[Reach4]

9100SXT is a 2-tank softener. It can regenerate any time of the day, rather than waiting until 2AM. With a single tank demand driven softener, each night the softener asks itself if it has enough capacity remaining to make it through the next day. If it does not, it regens right then. So about 1/2 day of capacity will remain unused. If the regeneration period is a week or more that is not so significant.

If your daily usage changes a lot, the softener has a harder time deciding if it has enough reserve for another day. You can set the reserve high and be more sure, or you can set the reserve low, risking running short of soft water on a busy day. You have the option to trigger a manual regen if you are expecting a big load coming up. With a 9100 you can take a shower at 2:30 AM and know you will get soft water.

A single tank takes less floor space, and it is usually less expensive.

The 9100SXT is still in production. The 5600SXT is still in production. It does not have the soft water brine refill of the 9100 and 7000, and it does not have the second backwash of the 7000. It does have more than enough soft water throughput for most houses.

 

[hellspcangel911]

Well that really clears it up, I didnt realize thats how the metering system worked. can anyone suggest where to buy a system? Im looking at this at the moment
https://www.amazon.com/Fleck-9100SX...&qid=1484683568&sr=8-1&keywords=9100SXT+48000

 

[ditttohead]

PM sent

 

[polychromeuganda]

Not sure why no one has mentioned it, but the Federal government has long listed ion exchange resin bed water softeners as effective for radon reduction. I chased down the actual research chain and it doesn't involve large numbers of sites and types of equipment, but IIRC the experiment was repeated by different groups decades apart. The most interesting part of the data was that the Radon reduction was not only stunningly effective, but they would prevent the softener from regenerating to see what would happen when the media was saturating and was passing more than 30% of the calcium hardness through and the Radon removal was still near total. The data showed that radon was being removed by ion exchange and was being concentrated in the flushed brine discharged when the softener regenerated.

The point being that unless there's something unusual about your Radon situation, you might choose to discontinue the activated carbon filter. If it remains in place it will saturate with radioactive Radon and have to replaced at regular intervals, its not some sort of a nuclear containment vessel. The softener will not saturate and will not require replacement at regular intervals.

Your concern for your septic system ... "Lastly, we have a septic and for a while now I've been putting this install off as I've been told the softener backwash will ruin my septic in the long term." I don't know who told you that or why, but its not accurate. Anecdotal data is the least reliable because people select what to report and their motivations bias the set of information reported. With that caveat, my own experience is with 37 years in a then new house with a new softener and a new septic tank and leach field, the only septic system repair since has been to a repair the crushed cover of the distribution box where the line splits from 1 to 3 at the start of the leach field. A 130 foot northern white pine fell and drove a 6" diameter branch stub into the ground and through the lid. If its true that a softener will ruin a septic system in the long term, then the time scale is more than 37 years.

Many sources point out that if your local codes don't require you to put the discharge into the septic system, then not putting additional flow of even pure water into the system is generally beneficial. Experiments by reputable researchers including the University of Wisconsin don't find any change in the makeup or effectiveness of typical aerobic and new style aerobic bacteria in septic tanks when a water softener is added to a system. There's an opinion paper on the internet by someone who disagrees with the experimenter's conclusions based on general information about bacterial salt sensitivity and an hypothesis of concentrated salt layering , but the author sells various water treatment systems and solutions and offers no experimental data to support the position or any theoretical data to support the hypothesis, an elaborate assertion but nothing more.

 

[hellspcangel911]

Hi PolyChrome, thanks for your view on the Radon and septic systems. Since I already have the charcoal tank, I might as well incorporate it. I will be adding a manual backwashing valve to keep the tank clean between the 3 year service intervals. As for the septic, I've read and heard an equal divide on the issue. I do think one of the problems people had early on was with concrete septic tanks. Given the layout of my property and the location of the water equipment I've decided to run a 4" pipe out to dry well at the edge of my property. The washing machine, water softener, backwash valve will run into this pipe along with an exterior curtain drain and downspout from the roof. Thats a lot of water that would otherwise unnecessarily go to the septic.

With the help of members on this board Ive moved forward with a 5810 Valve, 12 x 54 Tank, Round Brine Tank on 1" pipe. I'll be upgrading the 3/4 copper to 1" during the install.
New System will be:
WELL PUMP plumbed with 1" CPVC | CHECK VALVE | CSV | PRESSURE SWITCH | TANK
1" COPPER | TWIST 2 CLEAN FILTER | RADON TANK with Manual Backwashing Valve 2.5-8 with 1.05 Riser and 1.05 x 54" High Flow Heavy Duty Distributor) | TEE for fridge water dispenser | 5810 VALVE | PENTEK BB 4 X10" 1 micron filter | 3/4" Copper to rest of the house

Thank you to everyone who helped me with this project, I'll post pictures along the way.

 

[Reach4]

WELL PUMP plumbed with 1" CPVC

I think you want PVC rather than CPVC for the pump. I have not seen it discussed how soon you have to transition to CPVC for the house. I would really rather have PVC up to the tank tee, or at least to the first threaded fitting in the house. Transitioning PVC to copper before coming in would satisfy everybody.

I understand that newer plumbing codes call for no pressure PVC inside, but if the inspectors were nutsy literal on the feed from the well, I suspect we would have seen a story or two.

PENTEK BB 4 X10" 1 micron filter

4x20 will have half of the pressure drop and twice the capacity. If that BB is after your backwashing filter. At least leave room under the filter so that you could switch out to the bigger sump in the future. But the 1o inch does have the advantage of not being as heavy when full of water. Consider a bypass around the BB. At least keep a spare O-ring.

Also consider adding in some boiler drains in the path. They are good places to take samples and to attach pressure gauges. You might also want to draw water for your plants and even for filling drinking jug before the softener. If you don't want the drains, tees with threads on the side port make it easy to add a faucet or pressure gauge later.