Add water line from 1st building to 2nd building 800ft apart

[Shibby021]

A bit background, I am a DIY'er on my property deep in the woods, I've done everything from clearing land all way to a finished house. I love doing this, and it saves me enormous money!

I am adding water service to a studio apartment in the shop. The line will be 800 ft from the well that is located at the house #1 to the shop.

I know there will be quite a bit of pressure loss the further out from the well. The current well line to the house #1 is 1 inch poly line with 20 gal pressure tank inside house #1, I believe it is at 40psi. From my understanding pressure can be fixed by adding a underground cistern with pump, but that will be done at a different time. My current main focus is to get the line in before the ground freeze so the studio can have some water for the winter.

My ground is all sandy 66ft down at least from my knowledge from the company that drilled the well. The state frost depth is listed at 5ft and recommends bury depth 12" or deeper below frost line.

1. Line - is 100 psi SIDR poly line good or should I go for 200psi poly line? If 100psi is fine then I can afford to do 1-1/2 inch poly line, if 200psi then I can only afford to do 1 inch poly.

2. Fittings - I am having difficulty finding some fittings for 1-1/2 inch line like a tee coming off a 1 inch line to 1-1/2" line. Or a reducer for 1-1/2" to 1"

3. Clamps - I worked with a guy putting in a new water line for a job, he used screw clamps, are those clamps accepted? Or what would you use?

4. I want to add curb stop valve couple feet away from the well along with a Woodford Y34 freeze proof hydrant couple feet away from the curb stop valve. Is this too close to each other?

5. Can I do 1 inch tee at well line - 1" line to the curb stop valve - 1" line to a 1"-1"MIP-1-1/2" - 1-1/2" poly line out to shop? It's a huge price difference, 1" curb stop valve is $90.00 while 1-1/2" curb stop valve is $289.00!! Also what is the shaft from the curb stop to the ground called? So I can use a wrench or something to close the valve to do work on the line in the future.

6. Frost proof hydrant bury depth, is 6' good? or should I go deeper like 7 or 8'?

7. I had a debate with someone on the bury depth of the line, as the frost depth is 5' and the state recommends burying water line 12 inches below frost line so that is 6'. I want to do 8', am I being too excessive? I mean it does get down to minus 30F during daytime sometimes. I am in the woods so wind is not a issue. The first 400' does go under plowed driveway so I believe that section definitely needs to go deeper than 6'.

I think that is all for now.

 

[Bannerman]

I know there will be quite a bit of pressure loss the further out from the well.

There will be no pressure loss unless the flow rate to the studio apartment exceeds a certain flow rate. Since the pipe has not yet been installed to the shop, I would recommend enlarging the pipe between the pressure tank and the shop to 1.25" or 1.5" to reduce the amount of friction loss as a result of the extended pipe length.

I believe it is at 40psi. From my understanding pressure can be fixed by adding a underground cistern with pump,

Pressure can likely be increased by simply increasing the pressure range setting on the well pump's pressure switch.

You haven't said your well depth, static water level, well recovery rate, nor the pump model currently utilized.

By 40 psi, I anticipate your pump's pressure switch may be calibrated for a 40/60 psi pressure range whereby, the pump will be activated at 40 psi, and will be shut off once 60 psi has been sensed by the pressure switch. Depending on the pump model and static water level, the pressure switch settings may be often increased to 50/70 or even 60/80 psi.

If you were to install a Cycle Stop valve between the well pump and pressure tank, the pump will be prevented from cycling for as long as more than 1GPM is being consumed, in addition to providing constant pressure to both the home and shop/apartment fixtures.

1" line to the curb stop valve - 1" line to a 1"-1"MIP-1-1/2" - 1-1/2" poly line out to shop?

No valves should be located between the pump and pressure tank/pressure switch (PT/PS). Closing a valve before the PT/PS will prevent the PS from receiving flow from the pump, so the PS will not sense any pressure rise, and is likely to cause the pump to continue running and overheat, likely to burn-out the pump.


While a yard hydrant maybe installed between the well and pressure switch, if utilizing a CSV, the CSV will need to be located before the yard hydrant, likely within the well or within a sufficiently deep pit to prevent freezing, located just after the well's pit less adaptor.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

There really is no loss in 800' with a flat surface unless the pipe is too small. But with only a studio apartment on that line, there should never be more than 5 GPM being used, which would make 1" pipe work fine. Might loose 5 PSI in 1" line. There would be basically zero loss in 1.5" pipe unless you are using considerably more than 5 GPM. I prefer the thicker wall pipe as it has a higher rating and is tougher in a ditch where it may get rubbed on rocks and things. Poly will increase or decrease its length by about 1" per 100' per 10F temperature change. Just means don't make the ditch perfectly straight. Put some bends in it like they do the long power wires overhead or it will pull out of the fittings on the end. Yes, SS clamps are OK. Use two per connection and tape over them with electric tape. Butt fusion welded is better if possible. Not too many small fusion machines around though. 6' should be deep enough and you want the frost free the same length as the line depth. Also make sure there is no check valve at the pressure tank if water from the tank will need to feed backwards to the line you are teeing off of the main.

 

[Shibby021]

No valves should be located between the pump and pressure tank/pressure switch (PT/PS). Closing a valve before the PT/PS will prevent the PS from receiving flow from the pump, so the PS will not sense any pressure rise, and is likely to cause the pump to continue running and overheat, likely to burn-out the pump.


While a yard hydrant maybe installed between the well and pressure switch, if utilizing a CSV, the CSV will need to be located before the yard hydrant, likely within the well or within a sufficiently deep pit to prevent freezing, located just after the well's pit less adaptor.

There is no check valve installed currently.

I have attached image of what my setup would be like, the pressure tank and pressure switch are in the house, I am just simply tapping to it not placing any valve in line of the well and house.

You haven't said your well depth, static water level, well recovery rate, nor the pump model currently utilized.

66ft deep, not sure on recovery rate and pump model, I will have to check.

There really is no loss in 800' with a flat surface unless the pipe is too small. But with only a studio apartment on that line, there should never be more than 5 GPM being used, which would make 1" pipe work fine. Might loose 5 PSI in 1" line. There would be basically zero loss in 1.5" pipe unless you are using considerably more than 5 GPM. I prefer the thicker wall pipe as it has a higher rating and is tougher in a ditch where it may get rubbed on rocks and things. Poly will increase or decrease its length by about 1" per 100' per 10F temperature change. Just means don't make the ditch perfectly straight. Put some bends in it like they do the long power wires overhead or it will pull out of the fittings on the end. Yes, SS clamps are OK. Use two per connection and tape over them with electric tape. Butt fusion welded is better if possible. Not too many small fusion machines around though. 6' should be deep enough and you want the frost free the same length as the line depth. Also make sure there is no check valve at the pressure tank if water from the tank will need to feed backwards to the line you are teeing off of the main.

It is all loamy sand very fine almost like beach! It's like that about 1ft below surface and all way to 66ft, Not sure what's beyond 66ft.

 

[wwhitney]

What is the design flow rate for the studio apartment, and what is the elevation difference between the pressure switch and the studio apartment?

5 gpm through 800' of plastic pipe with a 1" true inner diameter (this number should be adjusted for the actual inner diameter of the pipe you select) will lose 6.7 psi to friction. If your studio apartment is 15' lower in elevation than your pressure switch, that's also 6.7 psi of additional pressure, so at 5 gpm your studio apartment would see the same pressure as at the pressure switch.

Whereas if your studio apartment is 30' higher in elevation than your pressure switch, now the combined elevation loss and friction loss at 5 gpm would be 20 psi, which would likely be a problem when the source is only 40 psi.

Pipeline Pressure Loss Calculators

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Shibby021]

I did not write down the specs of my fixtures when I bought them but they are 3 sinks ( 1 kit, 1 bath, 1 in shop) 1 shower, 1 toilet and washer. So that's like 13gpm?

Switch to studio elevation change is about 5 ft drop. So that is helpful a wee tiny bit.

 

[Shibby021]

Found well info

 

[wwhitney]

I did not write down the specs of my fixtures when I bought them but they are 3 sinks ( 1 kit, 1 bath, 1 in shop) 1 shower, 1 toilet and washer. So that's like 13gpm?

The IRC/IPC/UPC has a WSFU (water supply fixture unit) method for adding those up and converting to gpm, but I'm not familiar with the details. The couple times I've looked at examples, it seems to arrive at a higher figure than I would find reasonable.

The higher the demand you want to design for (e.g. 10 gpm at 40 psi after setting the pressure switch to 50/70, so allowing 10 psi loss), the larger the pipe you'll need.

If you're happy just using one fixture at a time, 3 gpm would be sufficient. If you want to be able to use two fixtures at a time, then 5 gpm would be sufficient. With multiple simultaneous fixtures, the toilet and/or washer may draw more than they need (they'd each be happy with 2 gpm, I would think), so you could install flow limiters on those fixtures. That way a toilet flush doesn't cause as much pressure drop in the shower, for example.

That's the extent of my knowledge about how to pick a gpm to design for, so I can't suggest an actual figure to use.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Valveman]

I did not write down the specs of my fixtures when I bought them but they are 3 sinks ( 1 kit, 1 bath, 1 in shop) 1 shower, 1 toilet and washer. So that's like 13gpm?

Switch to studio elevation change is about 5 ft drop. So that is helpful a wee tiny bit.

Yeah, so what is the likelihood of having every fixture in the house on at the same time? Very rare. Even most large houses never use more than 5 GPM at any given time. Even when/if you do use more than 5 GPM, you will just have slightly less pressure with two showers and a sink running than when only one shower is on. But go with the larger pipe and it won't be a concern.

 

[Reach4]

Found well info

4 inch plastic casing together with a 2 inch screen point seems odd to me.

 

[Valveman]

4 inch plastic casing together with a 2 inch screen point seems odd to me.

Pretty common in some areas.

 

[Reach4]

Pretty common in some areas.

How does that work? Four inch PVC down most of the way, and a drive point thru that and a bit farther?

 

[Shibby021]

I want to go for 1-1/2" poly from Menards, its 100psi SIDR potable, that would be good as I don't have rocky ground, its all beachy sand kinda finer than that at 7-8'. It's $600 for 800 ft.

However I am having difficulty finding fittings for 1-1/2 inch stuff, like I need a 1-1/2" to 1" reducer, and 1-1/2" x 1" x 1-1/2" tee, 1" x 1" x 1"FIP if possible so I can connect 1" MIP x 1-1/2" barb.

I don't have issues finding 1-1/4" stuff.

Any leads on where to order those stuff would be helpful!

I called some well drilling company and they won't sell materials to me.

 

[wwhitney]

I don't have issues finding 1-1/4" stuff.

If you mean this product:

1-1/4" x 100' SIDR 19 100 PSI Potable Water Poly Pipe

1-1/4" x 100' Excel 100 PSI Flex Water Pipe Blue Label

www.menards.com

It has a 1.38" nominal ID. Per the pressure drop calculator I linked to earlier, at 10gpm and 800', you'd only have 5.0 psi frictional pressure losses.

So if 10gpm is an acceptable design flow, I see no compelling reason to go larger.

No comment on the suitability of the above pipe for any other aspect of the installation (durability, etc), as I have no experience with that. I'm just commenting on the pressure drop question.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Reach4]

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-CSS-150-1-1-2-Stainless-Steel-Insert-Coupling

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-CB-150-1-1-2-Brass-Insert-Coupling-Lead-Free

Go to https://www.supplyhouse.com/T304-Stainless-Steel-Reducer-Couplings-20630000 and select 1 1/2 on the left.

Same with https://www.supplyhouse.com/Couplings-168000

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BRT150-150-100-1-1-2-x-1-1-2-x-1-FIP-Brass-Tee-Lead-Free is tee with 1.5 inch FIP on two ports and 1 inch on the side port.

I am sure you can find other good stuff.

 

[Shibby021]

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-CSS-150-1-1-2-Stainless-Steel-Insert-Coupling

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-CB-150-1-1-2-Brass-Insert-Coupling-Lead-Free

Go to https://www.supplyhouse.com/T304-Stainless-Steel-Reducer-Couplings-20630000 and select 1 1/2 on the left.

Those first 2 are just couplers. Don't need them

Other one the reducer, I was trying to do it with least fittings required. Using reducer like that requires 3 fittings.

 

[Reach4]

What would your ideal fitting be?

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-SSTE-150-1-1-2-Stainless-Steel-Insert-Tee

You can also consider nylon https://www.merrillmfg.com/NTP150
Note you want to avoid female plastic ports when you get to your adapters.

 

[Shibby021]

What would your ideal fitting be?

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-SSTE-150-1-1-2-Stainless-Steel-Insert-Tee

You can also consider nylon https://www.merrillmfg.com/NTP150
Note you want to avoid female plastic ports when you get to your adapters.

My ideal is less fittings.

I am guessing plastic fittings are acceptable??

 

[Reach4]

1. I am done considering your fittings. Nothing less than zero.
2. Nylon is acceptable. PVC and polypropylene, dunno.

 

[Shibby021]

1. I am done considering your fittings. Nothing less than zero.
2. Nylon is acceptable. PVC and polypropylene, dunno.

Thank you and everyone else for all the help, I really appreciate it. It's just in my head that 1 fitting is 2 potential leak points, whereas 3 fittings put together is 2 extra potential leak points. Make sense? I know if sealed properly it will not leak and last. But it's just ocd thing of mine that I need to get over. I hate leaks hah